Audio/Video Desync

28 replies [Last post]
JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

This is not quite like the previous post on desync, so I'll make it separate. I've been fighting a desync problem for several months now, and have tried everything I have seen suggested here and on other boards and WEB sites with no good results.
The system is a PIII-450 running W2k SP2. I started with 256MB RAM and have increased it to 384MB (max for this MoBo). I've added to the original 60GB 5400rpm IDE drive a 80GB 7200rpm IDE drive. Both drives are DMA enabled. I generally use H/W or "none" for the inlay, since I noted that using S/W inlay caused the CPU usage to peak at 100%. I'm outputting as analog from the breakout box to a VCR and to a 13" TV so I can follow what's going on. I have run with "use Windows sound system" both checked and unchecked (no difference). I keep the large discs defragged (couple of times a week). FF is 1.7beta build 250, Premiere 6.01. I have also de- re-installed both Premiere and FF.
The problem:
I have a 15 minute project captured in FF and imported into AP6. I have NO problem scanning for clips or capturing from my DV camera (Sony TRV11), and if I play the individual clips in FF, all is in sync. In AP6, after I put the clips in the timeline, playing the timeline via (space) or (enter) plays the video out to the VCR/Monitor. Everything is well until about halfway, give or take a minute or so, and then the audio starts leading the video by about 1/2 second. By the end of the playback, the desync is about a second.
I can play selected parts of the timeline, beginning, middle, or end, and all stays in sync. Only when I play the whole thing does desyncing happen.
I have exported the project as a DIF file and imported it back into FF. In FF I can play any portion of the video with no problem, but, again, playing the whole thing results in desyncing about halfway through. I have also exported from Premiere as a Microsoft DV AVI file. When I play this back in the AVI player, there is no desync problem (unfortunately, this doesn't go out to tape). I have also started a new AP6 project and imported the good AVI file as one big clip. If I put it into the timeline and play the whole thing out to tape, the desync problem occurs as before. The only thing that seems constant is that playing out through the FF drivers, the problem occurs.
If there are no helpful responses from the folks here, I guess my next step is Dazzle tech support. I'm hoping to get past the usual first line of tech support defense (is the computer plugged in? Swap the board slot. Check for IRQ conflict. Reinstall the S/W, Etc.).
Thanks for any hints.
JR

cezarym
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi JR,
I am afraid so You are a little wrong...
Check out it precisely direct from FF, it occurs too.
I have PIII 1GHz, 3x128MB of RAM, all HDD at 7200 RMP and UDMA100, no IRQ conflicts, etc...
And, I have that problem too!
15 minutes - 1 second of desync, 30min - 2s, 60m - 4s...
It is unacceptable! Not for that price!
Three chips, PHILIPS, Intel!
I think, it occurs anywhere, but not many people payd attention.
You know, I have buy my DV.now AV two months ago. Several days later the Pinnacle Systems have buy the FAST :)))
And Me, until now I did with My DV.now AV NOTHING.
I told it My salesman - he plays dumb... Urge me to order all PC :))) Knock, knock!
Yesterday, I describe it to Dazzle Tech Support. They assure of answer in one week...
I will wait - two weeks. Later, I... 'bring it them up'.

Good luck JR!
Czarek.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

HI Cezrek,
Thanks for your info. Yes, it occurs from FF also, but for me, only if I play the whole 15 minute project. If I play just one or a few clips at a time, it isn't enough to go out of sync.
Pinnacle bought FAST??? That's news to me.
I sent an email report to Dazzle-FAST about two weeks ago and haven't even gotten the courtesy of an aknowledgement, much less an answer. I thought FAST monitored this board, but not a word from any of them here either.
If you do get some kind of fix to try from them let us know about it.
Thanks,
JR

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

Well, I've done some poking around and found the following article on the Pinnacle/FAST deal: http://www.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/select_forum.cgi?forum=fast

I don't see "Dazzle" mentioned anywhere, and don't know if this is included in the arrangement. Such a puzzle!
JR

dpalomaki
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Joined: Jan 2 2001

Yes, I've read that Pinnacle bought FAST. Hope Pinnacle does not screw it up.

ON Dazzle, more that a year ago, Dazzle bought the FAST Personal Video products group from FAST, which is the group that did the DV.now family we all know and love.

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi JR, hi All,

JR, You sent Them report two weeks ago and... Nothing?
So, I will wast my 'two weeks' too? ;)

Well, one clip lasts about one, two minutes usually, so who will be
able to notice that desync with his naked eye and ear, without adequate
instrument? Nobody. No after one to five minutes. He must to waste
15 minutes at least. And when he do not know about that bug? If he turn on
his analog printing process what lasts 2 hours...? Why not? Who told him
it is forbidden?
- He come back from any other kinds and what? He will affirm at least,
that 2 hours of expensive energy "poszlo sie jebac"
- euphemisticaly, is lost. :-(
Reactor warms, chimney is smoking.. And our entropy? Never come back ;)

Yes, I know one checked out, temporary 'kind', JR:
- print out please Your project from any application You have installed
(APxx, UMSxx or FFxx) not to VHS, but to DV unit (digital camera recorder,
camcorder...) via 1394 first, and then, reprint it to Your VHS directly
(independently of Your PC and of Your breakout box) from that DV unit, via
Composite or S-Video.
Your DV unit must be equiped with full internal Digital/Analog Converter,
other words - there must be analog video and audio outputs like Jack,
Composite or S-Video. Note it. Is Your TRV11 equiped with full internal DAC?
Uff, my poor English... :-(

But then, I consider... Then 'FAST' Company should to return every DV.now AV
purchaser 1/4 of payed amount, or in any other, more convenient form,
to compensate that. It is a simple, basic arithmetic and will be honestly.
Honestly, because a quarter part of current release of DV.now AV is not
working properly, and all unit is twice expensiver than DV.now! S-beep-t!
Who believe They will do it? 'Pinnacle' rules now... ;)

Our Guru is quiet as the grave ;) so I tell it...
This desync occurs from anywhere. From Adobes, from Uleads, from FFs too,
because it is not software- but hardware-problem. For PAL, framerate on video
analog outputs of breakout box (and who knows, maybe on DV.now AV PCB too)
is lower than 25fps (< 25 frames per second). Without hardware specification
do not try to explain nothing more...
Hello FAST, are You here? People are waiting and feel disappointed ;)
FAST, You have .uk, join our strengths, just like once... ;)
Fix Me up with FULL hardware specification AV section of DV.now AV.
English release, no German please... ;)
Is it top-secret? Maybe fixing of that analog output desync bug is possible
yet... We will want nothing for that, I assure. ;)

Yes JR, 'Pinnacle' bought 'FAST'. Would You like to know, JR, from where,
at what way 'Pinnacle (Germany)' have gain part of funds for that?
Hello All here! Is Anybody would like to know it? ;)
After 10'th e-mail with "Yes, I want to know it." I answer Everyone
individual via e-mail.
After 33'rd e-mail I answer so publicly as I will be able... ;)
I may to make available a few names, surnames, quotations too... ;)
Some audio recordings? Video recordings? ;)

JR, we must try to hit Their prides or consciences... But how?
Men from 'Pinnacle' have not, I have seen... :-(
Maybe: NOT(1) = 0, NOT(H) = L
- another words: NOT(TRUE) = lie through one's teeth(FALSE) ?
Oh, sorry, Microsoft have introduced another logic states... :)
State TRUE, state FALSE and... another state: NOTHING. Funny...
Probably Microsoft try to imitate the digital hardware High Impedance
or what?
LOL, my great-great-great-grandfather George, how to say in English...,
- knocks over in His Grave (in my native language it is only saying,
joke, nothing more, I assure).
And maybe: PINNACLE SYSTEMS GMBH buys FAST AG =
= ALL OUR WORLD TURNS UPSIDE DOWN and STAYS ON HEAD
- hehe, Their LTD, GmbH, is really very, very limited... ;) LOL,
or: NOT(FAST.forward) = SLOW.rewind OR SLOW.backward ? ;)
Hehe, "OBJECT.method", funny. ;)

I think, JR, we have a little chances. Buy AND pay AND (f-beep off) ;)

But, I would like to say so many of good words about 'FAST', 'Dazzle' (?)
FAST.forward 1.6 Team too!
In first - multisegment, multifile and multiHDD capture without of even
one frame droped... - Excelent! At last! Great! (regardless of that 'FAST'
hardware bug. They just deconspired it.)
In second - fast, nice, clear and comfortable PC GUInterface and all FF's
idea, superfast previews with sliders, flexible desktop, excelent clips
and all projects 'pre-preparation', etc... All that, I am sure, may to be
really quickly tuned. Enough, how to say... a little bit of this, a little
bit of that...?, of good intentions (surely they are), of time and of...
money.
Heh, money, from who now? - from 'Pinnacle Systems'? ;) Forget.

Good luck JR, good luck All here.
I hope You have a good time with me... :) and I do not offend Nobody!
Czarek.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

I would very much like to ouotput to DV first, but there is another problem with the drivers - see the "blotchie video" thread on this board. My TRV11 won't accept the output from the firewire, but I have no problem capturing from the camera. Scanning, batch capture, axport to Premiere - all of it works just fine without dropped frames. The problem appears to happen in FF, in Premiere, and I hear, in ULead. The only common thing I can see are the FF drivers.

As for "knocks over in His Grave" - yes, that's an Amer/English saying also - either "turns over in his grave" or "spins in his grave". I can understand your English fine - I bet it's much better than my Polish :-}

JR

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi JR,
with my 56k connection, burned topics are dragging very slow :-(
I have seen Bondrowskys post... and I was disconnected.
I am using TRV900 like He and via 1394 all works excellent in both of directions.
It seems like Sonys blame.
You came to a standstill... :-(
I will try to borrow TRV11, but I do not promise, do not wait, OK?
At this time, only I see, is every about 3..5 minutes, in suitable moment of Your movie, to put
in the project some short-lived, 'dead' clip, to pause (^SPACE from under FF) printing at this clip.
Then, after about of 1/2 second, Your video will catch up with Your audio. And again ^P (not ^SPACE!)
to continue.
It is very inconvenient, but works and for short projects is some, very ugly, temporary solution...
I do not see any other now... :-(
Good luck, Czarek.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

I've done almost the same thing. At about 5 minutes or so, I put in a transition to fade to black, then after a second or so, I fade from black into the next clip. When I hit that point while recording, I pause the VCR. Then I stop and backup the timetine and play until I get to the "black" and then start the VCR recording again. As you say, very ugly.
Before the video I'm working on, I had a 45 minute video that had the same problem. I played the whole thing to VHS tape over and over again until one time, by luck, it went with no desync. Then I used the camera to copy to DV. I don't want to have to do that again, since this project will be about 45 minutes also.

Hey FAST/Dazzle - you're supposed to be monitoring this board. Any suggestions on this problem? Any scoop on which company owns what company? You're welcome to post here any time :-}
JR

JStruhar
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Joined: Mar 14 2001

Thanks so much to JVID for the original post. I have noticed the exact same thing and made comments in this thread and that about it. In my case, all is solved by using the "Print to Video.." feature in Premiere. For some reason all stays in sync this way, rather than recording directly from the timeline. This works for some, but not for others, with no explanation from Dazzle.

As far as Pinnacle buying FAST...if I understand correctly, Dazzle bought the DV.now line, et al from FAST, so if Pinnacle IS buying FAST it will likely only make things worse.

Stick together, we're all orphans already...

--
John Struhar
Spotlight Multimedia

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi JStruhar,
You wrote: 'This works for some, but not for others...'
Have You some (any) possiblity to hunt and to describe us, for what kind (type) of movies that desync do not occurs?
If such there are... How to say... - then it seems like we have got some a little chances...
You have funny fun with my English :)))
I have access to many PCs and their hardware-software configurations. In last Friday I checked my "Pinnacle Pro-ONE"
card in ASUS P2B with P2 at 412MHz. Do not work..., but Pinacle System says: Min Sys Req - P3 at 700MHz, OK.
Today, I will try to put in there my DV.now AV.
In 'Technote DV.now AV 32001 Hardware Compatibility List (Rev.: 18 June 2001)' Dazzle-Europe says:
"A. Fully Compatible System Configurations" and "System A.1.2", but I see another, another, another inaccuracy there
- PIII at 450MHz (first, minimal speed for P3). But I have never seen ASUS P2B MoBo with PIII CPU,
only PII or adequate Celeron... - P('2')B! Puzzle... ;)
In my DV.now AV manual supplement is: Min Sys Req - PIII at 500MHz.
Nevermind, I will check it myself.
Czarek (cezarym, GeorgeBoole).

cezarym
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

MoBo: ASUS P2B (with 1012 BIOS), CPU: Slot1 P2 350MHz at 412MHz, RAM: 192MB, all FSB at 100MHz, HDDs at UDMA33,
3Com's network controller, Boca 56k internal ISA modem, Creative SB Live!, nVidia Vanta 16MB RAM, DV.now AV ;),
Sony TRV900E, Win 98SE, UMS Pro 6.0 with PatchII, AP 6.0, FAST.forward 1.6 (b.0240), my DV.now AV is here
in 2'nd PCI slot at 12 IRQ alone (not shared):
1. A girl from Welcome Screen window has not grown older yet.
2. All system is full stably. No hangings, no freezings.
3. Fast and full 'DV Player' and 'HD Player' control.
4. Capturing with 0 frames dropped (to IBM 40GB/7200RPM but at UDMA33 EIDE which MoBo supports).
5. No problems with printing to camera from FF via 1394 of course.
6. If I try to switch or export my project to UMS Pro 6.0, CLIPPER generates an error in DVPGENERATOR.DLL
module at 0167:08xx6127 in first.
All that is... how to say... very encouraging (?) to check out our analog desync problem directly from FF.
For day or two I check it out.
Czarek.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

Hi JStruhar,
Yes, I've tried both "Print to Video" and "Export to Tape" as well as recording from the timeline (Spacebar), but still desync after a while.
JR

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi.
JR, if you connect: Breakout Box (1394) -> (iLink) TRV11 (A/V) -> (A/V) TV set,
are then these blotches or desync on the TV set too?

JVID
Offline
Joined: May 22 2001

Czarek,
Good suggestion, but no help. With the premiere output set to DV, and the DV/AV cable from the camera to the TV and VCR, there is no picure at either place while the timeline is playing.
Thanks for the idea.
JR

GeorgeBoole
Offline
Joined: Oct 12 2001

With TRV11 camera (archaic), what I have borrowed (have here, near me, I have got her now) i see:
1. Blotchies on the her LCD display,
2. No blotchies on TVset's screen and no blotchies on VHS tape,
3. No our A/V desync at TVset's screen and no desync on the VHS tape recorded, after 1.5 hour! Desync = 0.
- From FF 1.6, from AP 6.0 with 6.01 patch, from UMSPro 6.0 with PatchII!!!!!
JR, I do not understand nothing... It works for me - no blotchies on VHS, no desync on VHS.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

Czarek,
How are you outputting to the TV/VCR - directly from the analog outputs of the breakout box, or from the camera output? Is Premiere set for output to DV only or DV/Analog?
JR

cezarym
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi All, it is Monday, I have some joke for You:

MY REQUEST TO 'support@dazzle-europe.de':
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
it is the common problem, I have noticed. During printing to VHS with DV.now AV, there is audio-video desync: audio aheads video about 1 second for every 15 minutes of movie. Is there (or will be) any solution (excluding intermediate D/AC inside of external DV unit)?
It is only the question. I would like to take it into consideration, what wires should I to purchase and what connections should I to do.
Thank You very much for reply.
Best regards,
Cezary **********.

THEIR REPLY:
Dear Mr. Cezary **********, thank you for your request.
You wrote:
"audio aheads video about 1 second for every 15 minutes of movie."
Please remove the "1"and enter "non".
Now audio-video must be sync.
friendly regards,
Mit freundlichen Gruessen
Markus ********

1. JR, with my excelent English it looks as joke, is it?
2. JR, I answer Your question step by step today yet.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

It almost reads like a joke, doesn't it? If they are serious, the only thing that comes close is in the Project Settings -> Audio, there's a field labeled "Interleave" which has the possible values of "None", "1 frame", "1/2 second", "1 second" and "2 seconds". Mine says "None" and this is probably the default at installation.
At least you got an answer - my email to support at dazzle.com was sent on Oct 1, and I'm still waiting 3 weeks later for any answer.
JR

cezarym
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Yes, but 'interleave' have apply to audio-video files *.AVI, *.MPG... generally.
I bet, that value of audio interleave has nothing to do with our desync problem. It seems like joke yet ;) Never mind...
JR, I will try to describe You all options You ask me, today about 11 PM (of my time).
Thank You very much for simple, basic English for me and for Your patience...
"Tymczasem". (it's some like: bye, see you...)

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hello JR.

1. 'How are you outputing to the TV/VCR - directly from the analog outputs of the breakout box, or from the camera output?'
- from the camera output, via Audio/Video four-connector mini-Jack (ground, composite video, left audio, right audio).
Comments:
a) first tip of connecting wire (cable) have this mini-Jack, second tip have three chinches: composite video (yellow), left audio (white), right audio (red)
b) this second tip of wire is connected to my S-VHS VCR inputs
c) my VCR's input is properly choosed...
d) output of my VCR is connected to the input of my TV-set via RF wire
e) all settings are PAL
f) I do not use analog outputs of the breakout box quite, because, that was not joke: analog output of DV.now AV do not work properly (hardwarely)
FAST MY FRIEND, WHAT ABOUT THAT SPECIFICATION ???!!! :)
g) camera is connected with the breakout box only via 1394->iLink

2. 'Is Premiere set for output to DV only or DV/Analog?'
- for output to DV only. [Project]/[Setting]/[General]/Editing Mode: FAST-Dazzle DV/[Advanced Settings]:
[Inlay] = Auto Inlay, [Device Control] = Sony, [Codec] = nothing is checked..., [Audio] = Capture channel 1..2 and Use Windows Sound System unchecked...,
[Input] = never mind here..., [Output] = Digital Output.
Comments:
a) camera is in VTR mode,
b) if I press Play(L) in Program vindow, or preview with the timeline slider, or choose [File]/[Export Timeline]/[Print to Video], then:
- on the camera's LCD are various efects (squares, caleidoscopes or sometimes grey picture, or fragments of some frame),
- on the TV-set is excelent video and audio, on the VHS tape too,
- sometimes, if camera is powered from the power supply adaptor, picture on the TV-set is caused, but from battery never,
- after about 30 minutes our desync = 0. I bet, that after 2 hours will be 0 too.

JR, are You able to understand what I was wrote above?
If no, I will willingly (eagerly) to film it all for You, compress and send You.

Czarek.

P.S. My idea: talk FAST into fix me up with that specification. For month, two, I will prepare suitable DAC, really!

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

Czarek,

Thanks for your very detailed answer. I have no problem understanding it. My hookup is about the same, with a few small differences. For d), my VCR to TV connection is by the Video/Left/Right cable. For f), the analog outputs from the breakout box to the VCR work fine for me. These are minor, I think.

I believe the biggest difference (not fixable for me) is item e). You use PAL, I use NTSC, and I think that's where the problem is. If you look at the "blotchie" thread, you'll see a message from the moderator (sometime in June) that the problem hasn't been seen in PAL systems, and that it could be an NTSC problem.

Waiting for Dazzle.

JR

orange
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Joined: Oct 23 2001

I wonder if it helps you folks:

"Limitations: Small audio issue in that you must click "Use windows sound system" in Premiere general settings so you can hear the audio on the timeline while scrubbing. Just be sure and turn it back off before you export as it can get out of sync with it turned on. (very minor problem IMHO)"

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Hi Orange,
with my poor English... You wrote the citation, I guess... From where?
JR, for a several days I will try to check out all what possible in NTSC mode.
Regards, Czarek.
P.S.1. What "IMHO" means? (do not smile please ;))
P.S.2. "BTW" = By The Way - Eureka! :)
P.S.3. I see bigger and bigger chances for DAC with my friends.

dpalomaki
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Joined: Jan 2 2001

OMHO = In My Honest (or perhaps Humble) Opinion.

JVID
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Joined: May 22 2001

Orange,
Thank you. I've seen that "limitation" mentioned in several places, and, as I mentioned in my (admittedly long) first post, I've seen no difference whether the "Windows sound" box is checked or not.

It wasn't my intention, but this thread seems to have merged the "blotchie" problem with the "desync" problem. The first has been acknowledged as a joint Dazzle/SONY/NTSC problem, which I'm told is being worked on. The second I believe to be a FAST driver problem, since I can export to an AVI file and play it back with no sync problems, and neither the export nor the playback requires the FAST driver.

How about it Dazzle - can you chime in here with at least a progress report? Today is day 22 since I've sent an email to Dazzle support on the desync problem. Can't you even acknowledge receipt?
JR

GeorgeBoole
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Joined: Oct 12 2001

Yes Orange,
two different problems here are:
1. Blotchies etc. on the some models of DV camcorders - it is drivers blame,
2. Growning with time, audio-video desync during printing via analog outputs - it is hardware blame. (proof: no answer from support, they know about it).

orange
Offline
Joined: Oct 23 2001

Had better read before I spoke a word.
You know I've been pursuading myself to go on the digital track for a couple of weeks, and trying to find a reasonable solution I met this DVnowAV gadget. Since I am an absolute beginner I read a lot and talk to as many people as I can. Moreover, there is this new product, the basic version which must be even cheaper. Reading this forum doubts arise though. I've talked to a fellow who sells these kind of things and he's trying to divert me from DVnowAV offering Canopus's new ADVC-100 + a Pyro instead. I know it's not out yet. That's something like the Hollywood Bridge + a Pyro, but a bit dearer.
good luck to you all, guys

orange

JIMP
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Joined: Nov 10 2002

I am a relative beginner in this game and also had sync problems on export to tape.
No doubt there are sevral possible underlying causes depending on configurations and settings. In case it helps some people, I inform you that I am using Premiere 5.1 with FAST/Dazzle DV.now.AV
and eventually seem to have overcome my problem at least by deleting all preview files for the project (right click the folder and delete). Empty the waste paper bin also. Then Re-render and export.
My simle rationalisation was that Premiere had been managing to link to an incorrect Preview file. In nay case it seemed to have worked consistently to cure my export sync problem.
As I am new to this board perhaps a universal (and completely duifferent) has been found meanwhile - if so I would be pleased to know it. Thanks.
JIMP