Cheaper Petrol

21 replies [Last post]
doolahroak
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Joined: Apr 2 2005

Hey all you motorists

Please take time to to check out and sign up at pipelinecard.org

potential to save a fair few pennies on petrol. The site will tell all.

cheers for now

Jon

H and M Video
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Joined: Jun 5 1999

Might seem off the topic but it's strange how many people are against an ID card and they would be quite willing to register and give some of their personal details (not much in this case) to anyone apart from the Gov. Back to the post, it does look a good scheme if it gets off the ground.

Harry

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GTFC Video
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Joined: Nov 30 2001
H & M Video wrote:
Might seem off the topic but it's strange how many people are against an ID card and they would be quite willing to register and give some of their personal details (not much in this case) to anyone apart from the Gov. Back to the post, it does look a good scheme if it gets off the ground.

Harry

But it isn't going to cost anything, in fact it may save money but how much are we going to have to pay for an ID card, £85.00, £185.00 or much more.

Given this Government's record on overseeing computer projects it is going to cost us all billions, and then still might not work.

Martin

The-Video-Compa...
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Joined: Mar 3 2004

I hate Nectar, Boots Advantage, etc. The only good thing to come from these is that companies start to produce what the public are buying. However, I'm not sure if this limits real innovation from breaking through though.

The ID card, is another case of Big Brother. Although, it's actually one which I'm quite happy about. However, these should be provided for free to the general public like your National Insurance card.

The pipeline card seems like a decent idea as well. Maybe only because it'll save me a few quid on fuel, but at least that'll help. When you put in the miles over the year, I imagine that anything will be a blessing.

Same As It Ever Was! :(

Chrome
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Joined: May 26 1999

Hmmm... call me paranoid, but this has taken an awful lot of organising, so what is in it for them? What's their angle?

doolahroak
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Joined: Apr 2 2005
Chrome wrote:
Hmmm... call me paranoid, but this has taken an awful lot of organising, so what is in it for them? What's their angle?

I dont recall the chaps name but he was one of the main organisers of the fuel protests and campaigning and, when we've gone back to just accepting rising fuel costs, he continues to fight the cause I guess.

Read in the Guardian that so far 150,000 people have signed up to the scheme (last saturdays edition).

Might not be make for a retirement plan saving 2-3 quid a tank but seems like a good idea to me.

infocus
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Joined: Jul 18 2003
doolahroak wrote:
I dont recall the chaps name but he was one of the main organisers of the fuel protests and campaigning and, ....................

"David Handley, of Farmers for Action"? I recall him being interviewed on the "Jimmy Young programme" at the time of the fuel protests, and it gave rise to one of those unforgettable moments of live radio and TV. When asked about a ministers comments he uttered the immortal words, "well, I speak for the people, he's just a government minister, what right does he have to claim to speak for the people?" Errr - elected at the ballot box!? :)

As regards the scheme itself, if something seems too good to be true, it normally is. You never get anything for nothing. If the government was to have cut fuel tax at the time of the protests, it would either have had to put up other taxes or cut services. You never get anything for nothing. If this scheme doesn't involve government money, it may lead to the forecourt price of the participating garage going up to allow for the discounting to card members. Alternatively, it may be offered instead of a loyalty card scheme - I doubt it would be as well as - so the nett saving to the public could be zero. Sorry to be such a wet blanket.........

doolahroak
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Joined: Apr 2 2005

Sorry folks

Nowt to do with the fuel protest organisers. Got my stories mixed up entirely. Just a fellow who wants cheaper petrol and struck upon this idea.

infocus wrote:
You never get anything for nothing. If this scheme doesn't involve government money, it may lead to the forecourt price of the participating garage going up to allow for the discounting to card members

considering the roll out of the cards is expected to start when membership reaches 200,000+ the garage taking part would be commiting suicide if this were the case. I'm sure the garage involved will have far more than 200,000 customers on a regular basis considering the amount of cars out there. Wont risk their custom. I would imagine the garage concerned is more likely to think 'x00,000 more customers. Great'.

That is the basis of the idea. Nothing to do with government money.

I can relate this to a recent purchase of my own. I'll take 2 paglight C6s at £180 (normal price £200). Company thinks 'better the money in our pocket than someone elses'.

JOHN . A.V.
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Joined: May 6 1999

My M reg 2.2 Cavvy will do 350 miles for around £15.00. I bought the car last year for £2000.00 - But, I knew what I wanted.If you really want a bargain then go get a dual fuel car LPG/Gas. I currently pay 36p per litre and help save the planet too. Conversions cost approx £1600 for a multipoint type which I believe are the best. The cars best suited for conversions are Vauxhall and Volvo. I would suggest if your seriously considering conversion to do some research. Prices are more or less the same but some cars are not suitable and some systems are not as good and reliable as others. Otherwise have a look at ebays offerings using LPG Gas as the search filter. For those who live - or have to travel into London, You can apply for congestion charge exclusion. Again do your own research in this matter.

Willow
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Joined: Aug 6 2002

I live in Bangkok and the diesel fuel here is a reasonable 23Baht last year it was closer to 12Baht as the government subsidised it, they also cap the profits the fuel companies make. Anyway, that’s approx around 34P a litre – someone fills the tank for you with someone else cleaning the screen if you want. All the fuel stations have rest areas with toilets available and a shop. The further you go from Bangkok the fuel prices rise… There is a awful lot of Toyota Corolla Taxis here – more than black cabs in the west-end, all of these run on LPG so that has to be the way to go.

I do not know what all the fuss about I.D. cards is about either, London is the most CCTVed city in the world, England has the most CCTV cameras too. I did see that the Gov hope to develop facial recognition software for these cameras soon, they already have it on car No plates. You are being watched already.
Do you not think the UK government has access to all your SIM card Nos, I would be surprised if they didn’t track people not by their name but their No. its OK for the police to take a digital image of someone but not a photo.

Finally, the Thai ID card is “processed” in ½ hr. fingerprints to check ID. Photo with height – which is taken with a video camera and fed straight into a PC, then other data is added Nat Ins No, DOB, Home Address and is valid for 7years. There is talk of the proposed costs of bio-metric cards but this keeps getting changed due to alleged profiteering. I cannot remember if this was free, or a nominal amount paid, I would wake the wife to ask …but she’d kill me!

infocus
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Joined: Jul 18 2003
JOHN . A.V. wrote:
If you really want a bargain then go get a dual fuel car LPG/Gas. I currently pay 36p per litre and help save the planet too. Conversions cost approx £1600 for a multipoint type ..........

I used to run a duel fuel LPG car, but am now the very relieved owner of a diesel. (And saving the planet more than when I drove with LPG - although cleaner on the face of it, an LPG car needs a greater volume of fuel per mile, and hence overall emits more CO2/mile than a diesel.)

From my experiences, if anyone really wished an LPG car, then I'd advise going for one purpose built as such, and (unlike me) avoid a conversion like the plague. I found that 'accentuating the positive' best described the industry. Things like emphasising the relative cheapness of LPG per litre, but neglecting to mention that LPG powered it will do fewer miles per litre. Making very light of the fact that in a conversion the tank either fits in place of the spare wheel, or occupies over half the boot. Not publicising that in addition to the cars annual service, the LPG system required a separate annual service. (Which meant a wasted day, a 150 mile round trip, and an expense which wiped out much of the potential fuel saving, when taken in with the conversion cost.) Oh, and saying nothing at all about the very limited range on LPG - about a third that when on petrol - and the time taken to refuel. I got to know filling stations very well.

They are also banned from the Channel Tunnel and many underground car parks in Europe, which was an inconvienience I hadn't foreseen. The risk is due to the fuel system being always at a pressure of several bar, so the slightest leak can lead to a dangerous build up of gas over time in a confined space. Whilst the safety systems will cut out if a catastrophic leak occurs, they can't detect the difference between a slow leak and normal usage.

I could go on about reliability, but it brings back too many depressing memories - let's just say that I was very relieved to move to diesel. I do appreciate that many of my issues were down to it being a conversion, and a purpose built car may be much better, as may a larger vehicle like a van where there is more space to play with.

JOHN . A.V.
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Joined: May 6 1999

Those who convert vehicles to LPG have to know what they are doing. It`s not a DIY job, And I would strongly advise anyone attemting it not to. There are currently two LPG systems
One that feeds gas via the air intake assembly - These are notorious for causing backfires and poor performance as they are rather basic. The second main type is the multipoint sequential. These are far more advanced and do the job efficiently. I have a 55 litre tank in the spare wheel compartment. The car has the 2.2 ecotec engine and returns approx 350 motorway miles between fills. Diesels do throw out more carbon particle emmisions.LPG cars do have to have a Bi - annual service and a re certification after 5 years.

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

That's right - the bi-annual service sure eats into the 'savings'. A lot of people buy diesels not knowing that they must ask one simple question of the salesman - does the diesel need more frequuent servicing than the petrol equivalent? If the answer's yes, you've got to love filling the world with particulates to go ahead with the diesel purchase.

Alan Craven
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Joined: Jan 26 2001

The latest diesels emit no particles - thay have filters in the exhausts. I believe that the new European regulations will require this. Manufacturers such as BMW and Peugeot have jumped before they were pushed. My 3 litre diesel BMW is just over six years old. It is serviced about every 18 months - it had its first full service last August (incidentally I think this is far too long an interval on safety grounds) and will do over 40 miles per gallon on a long run. As a purely academic aside, it also has a higher top speed than an E type and will out accelerate some current models of Porsche in real life motoring.

Forty five years ago my father in law had a 3 litre petrol engined Vauxhall. It did about 12 mpg and trailed clouds of blue oil smoke behind it.

Unless some bright spark can make a practical Sterling cycle engine, the diesel is the best we have until we can break free from hydrocarbon fuelled combustion engines. Biodiesel is the next likely development.

ChrisG
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Joined: Apr 10 1999

Few things

a) Has the project which was the original point of this thread got off the ground.

b) I run a Skoda Octavia (VW engine etc.) Diesel, above 50mpg (ave), Variable service interval, up to 20k between services, synthetic lubrication oil which I am unsure of from an environmental pov. Of course the benefit of this is negated by being help up in jams on the A14 on a regular basis!!

c) If you want to save the environment bring back stubble burning for farmers, mad, no, consider the equation between pollution from stubble burning and direct planting practice with the pollution per horse power required to cultivate and grow crops where stubble burning is not involved. The latter also includes calculating the increase use of pesticides, fertiliser and manufacture of machinery to cope with incorperating straw. Bit OT but just shows how legislation does not always work in favour of the environment!

Alan Craven
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Joined: Jan 26 2001

Bean counters, who are the principal determinants of what is done, probably cannot spell energy, let alone carry out an energy audit and generate an energy balance sheet for a project!

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

I can't get why people buy posh expensive cars, insist on leather, air con, alloys, sounds, then often pay more for a diesel engine. Capacity for capacity the diesel is always heavier, rougher, nosier, less powerful. It requires a turbocharger, particulate traps, more expensive fuel and makes a stink. Heavier cars are always less safe.

I know there's more torque and I know the taxation system tries to twist the findings, but rich buyers that choose an inferior engine when a better one is available are quite beyond me. Why try to do more mpg when your car's depreciating by £40 a week - where's the logic in that?

I've had £45,000 diesel Mercs bring the bride to the church gates, and I've had to ask the driver to turn off the engine the rattle is so obnoxious. I find it headbangingly insane that the someone's spent more and got less, and for what? As Top Gear put it - if you follow a diesel engine you immediately think the driver's stingy. This is quite a stigma to bear.

There - that should liven up the thread a bit.

tom.

infocus
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Joined: Jul 18 2003
tom hardwick wrote:
Heavier cars are always less safe.

There - that should liven up the thread a bit.

tom.

I'll pass on the rest of your last post, but I can't let the first sentence above go unchallenged........

From an occupants point of view, I don't see how a heavier car can be less safe - all else being equal. Surely they must be either as safe, or safer? I can think of two broad categories of accident: hitting something immovable, or another car. In the latter case, then surely weight must be an advantage, following on from the laws of momentum?

Imagine two vehicles, A having a mass m, and B having a mass 2m in a head on collision, each travelling at 30 mph. Bs momentum will be 2m30, and As will be -m30, so the momentum of the ensuing wreckage (weighing 3m) will be m30. The nett result will be that occupants of A go from 30mph in one direction, to 10mph in the other, whilst the occupants of B slow from 30mph to 10mph in the same time. Surely the occupants of B are more likely to come out less injured? Taking the argument to extremes, who will come best out of such a collision between say, a bus and a mini?

Ah well - Tom wanted to liven the thread up....... :)

ChrisG
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Joined: Apr 10 1999

No one challenging the stubble burning theory then?

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

There's primary and secondary safety at play here. The less inertia you have, the more easily you are stopped, started and have your direction changed. Less inertia comes from having less mass, and if you look at the Queen Mary you'll see she takes 2 miles to stop and turns 180 degrees in 2 hours (whatever). She doesn't avoid the accident, but then none of the passengers even notice she's ploughed 50 metres inland. They're safe; the dock workers less so.

Now look at a radio controlled car out of Tandy. It's low inertia makes instantaneous operator decisions a reality - it stops and starts on a sixpence and changes direction like a woman's mind.

Back to the tarmac. The Lotus Elan, the Golf GTi and the Mini Cooper (the real ones, not the bloated lumps we see today) ran rings around the competition. When the drivers decided to turn left to avoid the impending pileup, the car responded. Today's Golf is exactly twice the weight of the original, and as such needs bigger brakes, power steering bigger tyres. All this weight is cumulative - it now needs a bigger, heavier engine, and when you fit one of those you need bigger brakes -- etc.

So yes, if you're intent on crashing head-long into a solid, immoveable object, do so in the heaviest vehicle you can find. Centurion tanks won't even shudder when the Chelsea Tractor hits them, but the Elise would have darted left and right and avoided it.

So yes, I stand by Colin Chapman's words, that small, light, responsive cars are always safer, and that more weight is always less driver's car. Vacuum cleaners are meant for sucking, toasters are meant for burning, yet cars are made for crashing. We've lost focus here.

Which could have brought me back to the diesel. Why choose a heavier engine to power your car? To save a few quid in 40000 miles? Is that a fair exchange when the vehicle is now inherently less safe? And the crazy thing is that now we're all being told how green we'll look if we drive a car with TWO engines. This is madness. Lugging a 90 bhp electric motor around all day, along with 40kg of lead acid batteries (the acid's great fun after the accident) is car makers fleecing us blind.

How can a 75 kg man (me) justify needing 1.5 tonnes to take him to work?

tom.

ChrisG
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Joined: Apr 10 1999

Just to flag up the start of the thread.

Has anyone been able to purchase cheaper fuel (of whatever type) by signing up to this scheme yet?

doolahroak
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Joined: Apr 2 2005

Hi Chris

The discount cards have not as yet been issued. Should be some time over the next few months.

Jon