Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?

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Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Hi there everyone,
 
I am a long time audio/recording engineer with my own studio and am looking to dip my toe in the expensive world of video.
 
I asked over on my other favorite forum "Sound on Sound" and was told that this is the place to be.
 
What I'm looking to achieve is to be able to record and edit events at my local church and also stream Sunday services to the internet for people who can't get there.
 
I'm thinking full HD is going to be too expensive so 720 will be just fine (Unless one of you knowledgeable folk is going to tell me otherwise?)
 
My initial plan was to use domestic camcorders with Lanc (for remote zoom) as I'll be doing this on my own. These will be sat on wired remotely controlled pan/tilt bases.
 
I would mount one at the rear of the building (Approx 20m from the "Action") , one camera on either side (Approx 5m away from Action) and another facing the congregation so I can zoom in on the people having a snooze ;o)
 
Like I said these will be on r/c pan/tilt bases and wall mounted, cabled back to the sound desk position at the back.
 
The remote pan tilt bases are controllable by a PC so I can setup camera angles and then put the signal into a switcher/mixer. The Datavideo Se200 seems to be highly regarded and also has a computer input for powerpoint stuff etc. I believe it also has a monitor section which does preview of all inouts on a single screen? (This would be cool as space is limited)
 
The output of the switcher/mixer will feed a recorder, a projector and hopefully (via some magical box) out to the internet.
 
I've tried using non HD camcorders as an experiment and while the quality was acceptable, they kept going to sleep i.e powering off after about 5 mins if they weren't touched. They were on mains power too!
 
So if you have not dies of boredom reading my first post, here are my questions:
 
1. Is 720 OK or should I go 1080?
 
2. Can you suggest some cameras I should consider ? (Must be remote controllable zoom/focus)
 
3. Will these cameras sit there for a few hours if not touched without "sleeping"?
 
4. Any alternatives to the Datavideo switcher (Is there a PC/Mac software solution worth looking at?)
 
5. Am I anywhere close to going about this the right way or are these the words of a madman?
 
6. Has anyone had any experience with the Powerpod remote control bases? (Good/bad - are they noisy - are they reliable etc)
 
OK That it for now, I'll go and make coffee while I await your wise words..
 
Many thanks in advance
 
Lizardpoint
H and M Video
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Joined: Jun 5 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Welcome to the forum, Lizardpoint. I can, I think, answer one of your problems.  To prevent the Non HD cams going to sleep you should leave the tape door open when recording and not using a tape.  Don't have to do this with a HD cam.  BTW might be a good idea to put a small cover over the SD tape door to prevent dust entering the tape mechanism.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hi Harry,
 
Thanks for that. I'd never have thought to try that.
 
Cheers
 
Lizardpoint
Wisz
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Joined: Jan 30 2001
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Welcome to the forum, Lizardpoint.

Well you have certainly come to the right place, although it may create more questions than answers wink.

What's your budget?

How many cameras do you intend to use?

The Datavideo SE-200 which you mention in your post  is a fairly old SD device and can only handle two SD inputs AFIK.

Perhaps you mean the SE-2000 which is a five channel HD mixer and will cost about £3-4K.

Will this be a permanent set up?

Richard Wisz Media Services

Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hi Wisz,
 
This will be a permanent install with 4 cameras (Although maybe not 4 from day one)
 
You are probably right about the Datavideo. I think I did mean a 2000 as I think it has 6 inputs although if there are other units I should consider then please let me know.
 
I already have a Edirol V4 mixer which may/may not be any use to me.
 
Most of the stuff will end up on DVD so its all a trade off with budget vs function.
 
I could use 4 x 16:9 SD cameras with LANC connections on remote powerpod pan/tilt heads and run them into my Edirol mixer and send that to a recorder then stream it to the internet.
 
OR
 
I could go with 4 HD cameras with LANC connections on remote powerpod pan/tilt heads and run them into a Switcher/mixer and send that to a recorder then stream it to the internet.
 
Once I know what I'm trying to do is achievable and which camera's I should be looking at then the rest will fall into place.
 
Cheers
 
Lizardpoint
Wisz
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Joined: Jan 30 2001
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
I'm loathed to recommend equipment, as we all have our own preferences.
 
Datavideo for example, not only produce, mixers, but also various other pieces of equipment like HD PTZ cameras and controllers which can be integrated into the sort of system I believe you are looking for.

Take a look at the the instruction manual for the Datavideo PTZ camera which will give you some idea of the set up.

http://www.resource.holdan.eu/manuals/Datavideo_PTC-100.pdf

Particularly pages 25 and 26

At a price of course and that is probably at the lower end of the cost scale.

Their main UK distributor is http://www.holdan.co.uk (although not the cheapest).

SD on the other hand is at the end of it's life cycle or so most of the manufactures would have us believe, but can still produce acceptable results.

There is tons of "stuff" out there.

I think your first decision revolves around your budget.

 

 

 

Richard Wisz Media Services

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
I';d look into wired PTZ cameras as they can be run off a PC and have the shots preset to include shot size.
 
I use wired pan tits with lanc operated cameras and it's a bit more work to get the shot lined up and so takes longer.
 
I've only played with a (sanyo) PTZ camera but it was so simple to press "shot 2" and have the camera whizz around and zoom in far quicker than a manual set up.
Not that I'd use it, but one option was to freeze frame the image just before the camera move and then come back to the new shot. So if you only had one camera and no mixer, the camera move is hidden.
Clevr but not for me.
 
You can control and send video via CAT 5
 
I don't know the costs of second hand camcorders v PTZ cameras but a remote Hague head is roughly £150 including the cable needed
Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hey Dave M,
 
That is a splendid idea.
 
Is the quality of the PTZ camera OK?
 
Are they OK in low light?
 
Are they available in 16;9?
 
It will simplify things to have the entire unit in one box plus I'm not then paying for cam-corders when I only need the "Cam" part.
 
If the Sanyo one you tried out was OK then do you have a model number?
 
Many thanks for a great suggestion
 
Cheers
Lizardpoint
mooblie
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Joined: Apr 27 2001
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hi, and welcome. I wonder how you found this place?? smiley
 
I wouldn't get too hung up on the need for great resolution in the cameras, without considering the maximum resolution of your final delivery formats.  
 
If it's DVD, then that's only Standard Definition, you won't need 720p, and expense that entails for cameras and mixers.
 
Even with web delivery, you are unlikely to need more resolution than that.  A widescreen SD image will  play in a browser at 1024x576 pixels - that's quite a large window to play video.  A typical YouTube video window is only 640x360, unless you go to full-screen playback, and then it only magnifies pixels from that resolution - still only using a 640x360 image.  
 
Higher definition hosting is available (Vimeo, etc.) but it's not much good for viewers on slow connections:  will your typical viewers all be on high speed lines? Probably not.
 
Furthermore, after the compression necessary for Internet transmission, you probably won't be too concerned at the last pixel of resolution, you'll be more concerned at nailing this inevitable compromise between (a) it looking "good enough" and (b) having compressed it enough to make reception possible by viewers with a slow Broadband connection (say 2 Mbps?).
 
BTW:  the best compression format for web delivery these days is H.264 [MP4].

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hey mooblie,
 
The folks over at the Sound on Sound forums sent me here.....
 
So far from the good people here I'm learning that:
 
If I'm delivering content via the internet and DVD that SD cameras will be fine.
 
PTZ cameras might be up to the job. (What sort of optical zoom would I need and what picture resolution should I go for as a minimum?)
 
All PTZ I've found so far are 4:3 format - I'm looking for Widescreen.
 
So it's looking like 4 SD PTZ cameras straight into my Edirol V4 mixer then output to a domestic HDD/DVD recorder, then via some magical jiggery pokery to the internet.
 
Do you think that this will give an acceptable quality for DVD playback and mp4 uploads to the internet?
 
What else would i need for live streaming?
 
Cheers
 
Lizardpoint
paulears
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Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
The second hand market (ebay and tv-bay) have lots of daft prices now on very good, and not too ancient pro gear. You can get 16:9 capable DVcams for quite low prices and they're really good. Same with production mixers - for-a and panasonics that kind of thing. For web streaming, few viewers will have 16:9 or even 4:3, but something in between and a bit random. 
 
A venue near me has a really good video installation, and until very recently used domestic handicap style cameras and the images were fine, and on full auto they did a pretty good job - contrary to all the comments you find on video forums. See if you can pick up something like Panasonic SD-9s, 1080, but low res outputs too that are decent enough. Good in low light and nice clean pictures. They're hopeless on manual because the knobs are too small, but the auto works pretty well. 
 
The sound on sound forum people would cry if they read some of the audio advice handed out on video forums!
Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hey Paulears,
 
There are some SD 9's on ebay right now.
 
Prices seem very attractive too.
 
Only issue is that of remote control. Do they have Lanc or just infra red remotes?
 
I did see a rather clever use of Toslink cable (1mm plastci optical fibre) to channel infra red data from a handheld remote to a camera's sensor so that is a possibility too.
 
One last question. Will these SD9's go to sleep on me if not touched for a few minutes?
 
I have a really nice Sony SD camcorder that I have used with firewire out into a laptop for Skype links to other countires that works really well, but if I dont fiddle with the zoom button everey 5 mins it goes to sleep even when on mains power.
 
Another person said that if I run it without tape then it won't do it.
 
What about the SD9? Any idea?
 
Cheers
 
Lizardpoint
paulears
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Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
You know I don't know! I have one somewhere, let me dig it up!
EDIT
Now the bad news - there's no remote control function at all. I guess that if you could get them cheap enough you could open them up and tag onto the zoom control, but that's a lot of faffing around. Sorry about the bum steer. Now I've dug this one out, I'll charge the batteries up and have a play.
DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
all the domestic cameras that I have used have been ok to run continuously so long as there isn't a tape in them.
 
 Dunno about card based ones.
 
I'd stick with LANC but you can use IR extenders, either wireless (?) of there's a system commonly used by AV companies that uses a stick on IR sender that transmits by wire from a receiver.
I bought a system once that was designed toi be used in a bedroom and used the RF cable so that the VCR in the living room could be controlled from upstairs via remote. The receiver would be in the living room and the transmitter stuck to the VCR front (Keene Electronics maybe?)
 
I use LANC over 150 feet or so using extension cables from B Hague. You can make your own or easier buy short leads (2.5mm jack) and extend them,
mediaed
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Joined: Dec 4 2001
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
For streaming onto the Internet you may find the AVer Caster of interest. I haven't used it but have read some favorable local comments.
 
This link will take you to the NZ agent, which lists description of the Caster and other items. I assume you will have a agent in the UK as well.  
 
 
I have used Datavideo video mixers in a small studio setting and their 2 way personal intercom too. Was very pleased with quality and resonable costs.
 
 
Gordon
 
RayL
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Joined: Mar 31 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
The camera setup as described is very similar to the system that I use for concerts - LANC controlled cameras on remote controlled P & T heads. The difference is that all my cameras record their output and I edit later.
 
My recommendations? Get cameras capable of HD. Even if you don't need the capability now, you may in the future. An excellent choice is the Sony V1. It has a 20x zoom which means tight close-ups and the wide-angle will be quite wide enough for the distances you quote. it is small and light, so less inertia with the P & T head, and it has been around for a few years now so there are s/h models available. LANC of course, and with manual controls for situations where, for example, you want a fixed focus setting. Being HDV, they do not go to sleep. I have had a VI for seven years now (along with other cameras) and it is just too useful to get rid of.
 
Ray
Gig Filmer
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Joined: May 26 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hi Lizardpoint,
 
You have PM
Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
So do you.
Lizardpoint
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Joined: May 21 2013
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Hi Ray,
 
Please can you give me the full model number of the V1?
 
I searched on eBay but the cameras that show up are not compact or cheap.
 
Interesting idea about recording to all cameras and editing afterwards. 
 
Cheers
 
Lizardpoint
 
mooblie
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Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
I believe Ray is referring to the Sony HVR-V1E:
 
 
I guess "compact" and "cheap" are both relative terms!
 
A "compacter" and (only slightly cheaper) camera is the Sony HVR-A1E.  Both are smaller and cheaper than the HVR-Z1E.  All tape-based, all once good prosumer models, but being non-card-based: all getting on a bit. They do all have dual XLR inputs, which, as an SOS man, I guess you'll like!

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

RayL
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Joined: Mar 31 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
mooblie wrote:
I believe Ray is referring to the Sony HVR-V1E:
 
Yes, confirmed. Sorry if I misunderstood the size of camera that you are looking for - I put the Sony shoulder-mount cameras on P & T heads, so the V1 to me is small!
 
In the early 'SVHS' days of recording concerts I had to cut the show live but as soon as I could I progressed to recording one and then more cameras as iso so I could do inserts. As computer technology improved I was able to move to recording all cameras as iso and doing a full edit afterwards. Being able to make timeline decisions seems so elegant. Todays edit is of five cameras with nine audio tracks (one of them a stereo premix of the band).
 
Ray
 
H and M Video
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Joined: Jun 5 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
Or if you missed this post, check it out.
 
 
Don't know if they would be suitable but someone will let us know.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999
Re: Just registered - Is this the right place to ask ?
 
this is a rig that I use, there's a PD170 on a remote head and it's a Panasonic MX50 mixer.
it goes to the projection screen on stage and out on the web