Why I hate solid state!

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noddydog
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Joined: Feb 28 2004

When I migrated from our Sony V1 to the NX5 I thought happy days .... faster workflow! Then I discovered that on location (I spend weeks at a time in Asia) I'd need to make x2 backup copies of everything onto external drives just in case one goes poof.

So that involved 1-2 hours each night of waiting around. Then when I get back home in the UK I have to feed Final Cut the AVHD files and wait for Log and Transfer to churn out FCP friendly Prores files... more time used up.

Ah but those converted Prores files are 4-6 times larger than the old ones I formerly got from the V1 into FCP... oh so that means I need extra hard drive space and yet more time to transfer an extra copy onto a different hard drive... because there's no back up tape copy!!!

Ah but now I've actually run out of hard drive space because those b****y Prores files are 6 times larger and I still need 2 copies!!!!! ....so I better order some new hard drives. Oh but wait the snow means the dealer can't deliver them until Thursday because of courier delays in this neck of the woods!!!!!

So here I am twiddling my thumbs wondering why I was daft enough to believe all that spin about faster workflows!!!!!!

rone01
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Joined: Feb 9 2009

To be fair , it's not solid state that's the problem here - it's your work-flow.

There are plenty of native AVC-HD editing solutions now. FCP is lagging now in this department.

Red EPIC / Scarlet - Panasonic AC 90 -  besq.co.uk

Alan Roberts
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Quite so, why not just edit the AVCHD? Why make life hard?

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

noddydog
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Joined: Feb 28 2004

Oh but I wish I could edit the native AVCHD rushes ... but Final Cut can't do that!

Also whatever way you look at it you still need that safety copy, so even if you gained +/- 50% over real time tape transfer, you'll lose it again creating that second copy. And that's without the space/management requirements duplicate files demand.

fuddam
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Joined: Nov 19 2005

yes indeed. Nigella, you should look into Sony Vegas. I get silky smooth AVCHD editing on my old laptop - I'm sure you must have been told about the software. If not, I'll explain it to you, and you can change your entire computer setup over there, for major cost, but it will be worth it!

:D

mooblie
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You can use the smaller AVCHD files (and NOT the huge ProRes files) for backup. Just make sure you retain the surrounding directory structure round the AVCHD files the same as that produced by the camaera. However, you can nest the camera's volumes within your own meaningfully-named folders on a backup hard drive.

If you ever need your backup, you can always re-"Log-and-Transfer" the files again.

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

noddydog
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Joined: Feb 28 2004
fuddam wrote:
yes indeed. Nigella, you should look into Sony Vegas. I get silky smooth AVCHD editing on my old laptop - I'm sure you must have been told about the software. If not, I'll explain it to you, and you can change your entire computer setup over there, for major cost, but it will be worth it!

:D

Mr Adama, you seem to forget that I tried a trial version of your beloved Vegas a while back... and it crashed again and again. Also you don't have to Google very far before you discover it has its own set of foibles;

http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/208/877154
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/208/877303
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/208/877286

Mooblie, yes that's what I actually do, I was just being a bit of drama queen for effect in my first post:-)

Mark M
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Joined: Nov 17 1999

Can I suggest that Shotput Pro might make your life easier?

http://www.imagineproducts.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2

Alister Chapman has good suggestion for a backup workflow here:
http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2009/11/04/working-with-xdcam-ex-material-by-alister-chapman/
He's writing about SxS, but it'd be the same for your Solid State cards.

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

SimonMW
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Joined: Nov 16 2004

Buy mirror raided hard drives. Then at regular intervals you can use apps like Super Duper.

For location work get a Nexto DI. FCP and AVCHD is a pain admittedly.

fuddam
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Joined: Nov 19 2005
noddydog wrote:
Mr Adama, you seem to forget that I tried a trial version of your beloved Vegas a while back... and it crashed again and again. Also you don't have to Google very far before you discover it has its own set of foibles

hehehe, you've tried it????? you take me too seriously, sah

Vegas nowadays seems to be plagued with stability issues. Not in my case but the cow shows how things have changed for a lot of peeps - I'll be the first to admit.

so long as I live in my little world, is all palm trees & sunshine

:D

Alan Roberts
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Edius seems to be 100% stable, and edits AVCHD natively. And in real-time too, with effects.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

dominicwitherow
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Joined: Apr 2 2006

I copy everything I shoot onto Blu-Ray for backup - much more reliable in the long term than a hard drive. Disks from Japan (Verbatim) on ebay are about £10 for 50GB (might be less even).
I suppose the real answer to this particular issue is, as ever, assess what tools will best suit any specific job and kit yourself out accordingly. Whilst solid state is wonderfully easy in most cases, field backup options and required workflows will not always make that so in other cases.
The FCP lack of native support can be a real pain and is certainly a serious shortcoming compared to the resurgent Premiere. However, if you know and like a tool, it is often difficult to change. That said, if you are feeling seriously hampered by the lack of functionality in FCP, then it's certainly worth trialing Premiere and possibly switching.

rone01
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Joined: Feb 9 2009
Alan Roberts wrote:
Edius seems to be 100% stable, and edits AVCHD natively. And in real-time too, with effects.

I will second that, I've just done a 1.5hr timeline personal project with over 5hrs of footage, no crashes no problems. Rendering out to BD as we speak, no glitches there either.

In fact I can't remember when Edius last crashed.

You need a corei7 to make it fly but that need not be expensive.

Red EPIC / Scarlet - Panasonic AC 90 -  besq.co.uk

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001

On my recent trip to India with my newly aquired HRX-MC50e I took an Iomega 500gig portable HD for use as back-up. Every evening prior to dinner, having a Choti Peg, I would back up the days shots, worked fine! On my return to the UK I further backed up the material whilst doing other things like acclimatising :-) & then I downloaded Vegas Studio HD 10 to use as a converter so I could ingest into Liquid.
I`ve ordered a new edit suite from DVC, Edius 6 for the New Year, sadly, Liquid doesn`t support AVCHD & like it or not, that`s the way things are going.

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

Alan Roberts
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Edius is pretty quick even on my old 2-core 2.2GHz DVC laptop, but on the new i7 machine it seems to have the answers before the questions are asked.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

noddydog
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Joined: Feb 28 2004
dominicwitherow wrote:
I copy everything I shoot onto Blu-Ray for backup - much more reliable in the long term than a hard drive. Disks from Japan (Verbatim) on ebay are about £10 for 50GB (might be less even).
I suppose the real answer to this particular issue is, as ever, assess what tools will best suit any specific job and kit yourself out accordingly. Whilst solid state is wonderfully easy in most cases, field backup options and required workflows will not always make that so in other cases.
The FCP lack of native support can be a real pain and is certainly a serious shortcoming compared to the resurgent Premiere. However, if you know and like a tool, it is often difficult to change. That said, if you are feeling seriously hampered by the lack of functionality in FCP, then it's certainly worth trialing Premiere and possibly switching.

Interesting thought re Blu-Ray, might look closer at that option.

Ironically I used to edit on Premiere and was happy with it until I moved up to HDV and coupled my hardware with a Matrox RT.X2 card. It all got very ugly after that and Matrox were next to useless in sorting it out. In fact I found them a serious HDV related audio bug that was wrecking my edit. Amazingly they knew nothing of it despite references in forums by similarly frustrated users. After several weeks of them promising a bug fix I decided I couldn't wait any longer and thus pulled the plug on my whole Premiere/Matrox system and decided to jump ship to FCP.

Overall I've been happy with Final Cut until AVCHD came along. However the lack of native support is becomming a big issue and if Apple don't pull their fingure out soon I may be forced to jump ship again.

Alan Roberts
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If you do decide to jump, at least think about Edius. It already does all you need, and is faster than all the competition.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

col lamb
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Joined: Jan 2 2010

I second Alan's suggestion.

I have been using Edius and Edius Neo Booster for the last 18 months and it is rock solid, edits natively on my PC and also when using Neo on the VAIO 2GHz duo 2GB RAM laptop.

Just built a new i7 PC which flies using the Windows 7 test application and I have the RAID still to setup and then Edius 6 to install before testing thoroughly out this coming weekend. I'll let you guys know what happens next week.

Col Lamb Lancashire UK ASUS P6X58D-E MOBO, 3.3GHz hex core i7 CPU, 12GB RAM, nVidia GTX580 GPU, W7 64bit, 500Gb boot, 1Tb RAID (Mirror) Store, 500Gb RAID (stripped), Edius 6.05, CS 5.5

Alan Roberts
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My i7 system will capture and edit uncompressed HDSDI, real-time. 2x1TB in a RADI, currently mirrorred and it just about works, but if I do any serious uncompressed work I'll reformat it striped. Edius just does it, no problem.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Nigel Longman
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Joined: Apr 28 1999
Another happy Edius user

As an Edius user since v2 I concur with previous comments regarding the application's stability. I've been running v6 on a self-built 2.8GHz i7 machine with 6GB of RAM and Win 7 Ultimate 64-bit and am delighted with the performance.

I'm mixing HDV, AVCHD and various still format files (around 6MB in size) on the timeline and it's taking it all in its stride. I use a RAID1 setup for the clips - not strictly necessary but I believe it helps the machine fly. The computer runs for hours every day without a hiccough.

Among the new features, I find the layout tool with its key framed functions and Bezier curves to be absolutely brilliant for panning and scanning still images. Previously I had been using Vegas for doing this sort of effect, but as has been mentioned by others, I have found the latest versions to be less stable on my kit than previously.

It looks as though Edius v6 now provides all the answers for me in a very stable package.

A happy man, NL :)

Mark M
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noddydog wrote:
Ironically I used to edit on Premiere and was happy with it until I moved up to HDV and coupled my hardware with a Matrox RT.X2 card

..SNIP..

Overall I've been happy with Final Cut until AVCHD came along. However the lack of native support is becomming a big issue and if Apple don't pull their fingure out soon I may be forced to jump ship again.

Yes, the RT.X2: great with CS3, awful with CS4, pointless with CS5.

You can jump ship without changing platforms by going to Premiere CS5 on the Mac.
I'm doing all my Mac editing (HDV .m2t files and EXCAM) in Premiere CS5 rather than FCP now. It just works. No rewrapping, log and transfer, etc, etc. AVCHD is treated natively in CS5. And CS5 is very fast. Even on my ancient Core2Duo MBP I can edit HDV realtime in CS5. Worth having a think about if you don't want to have to reinvest in Windows hardware.

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Z Cheema
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Joined: Nov 17 2003

If its any help 7day shop has some 16gb usb sticks for £12 each

drc_online
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Joined: Apr 19 2010
Needs Mac solution

As he's currently got FCP it would be less cost/hassle to have a Mac OS solution.

If you use Log and Transfer FCP forces you to use ProRes, which is arguably overkill for editing AVCHD originated files.
You could try Voltaic HD from Shedworx.

http://www.shedworx.com/voltaichd

This allows batch conversion of the AVCHD to another codec.
One suggestion would be 50Mbit XDCAM HD422.
This is a 4:2:2 long GOP codec, but one that is natively supported in FCP and it is approx 2 to 4 times smaller than ProRes (depending on which flavour)

Alternatively have a think about your workflow:
Are you ingesting everything into FCP? Can you select only the good clips?
Can you top and tail the clips in the Log and Transfer window prior to transcode so you aren't converting unusable content?

Hope this helps.

Regards

Dave

sleepytom
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It's not a problem with the editing software its a problem with not understanding the workflow.

The NX5 can do dual media recording. Use this function to avoid having to dump onto 2x hard drives for location backup.

Then when you get back to the studio (or hotel if your out for weeks at a time) copy the AVCHD to a RAID5 NAS (readynas pro are good) - if your rushes are really crucial then you might want to use an off site redundancy NAS system (easy with 2x readynas pros and rsync over the interweb)

When it comes to edit time then you take your files from the NAS onto your edit suite - log your shots properly and create your proxy files for the needed shots only (prores or whatever) then do your edit. When you've completed the edit you render your prores master. Copy your project files and the master render back to your NAS(es), at this point you can safely delete the prores proxy files as if you need to revisit the project you can regenerate the proxy files from the original AVCHD rushes. (assuming you have the full FCP project files which retain your log and transfer shot list)

I would not try and use DVD or BluRay disks for backup. Data falls off DVDr after a few years (i know i've lost stuff like this) Bluray is likely to suffer the same issues (regardless of what the disk manufacturers tell you). RAID storage with offsite redundancy is really affordable now and offers a true level of actively monitored backup, something which is far superior to even a tape archive.

To summarise
Shoot onto redundant media
Store rushes on redundant RAID drives
Edit using proxy footage
Store completed projects on redundant RAID drives.

Going tapeless forces you to think about the workflow, something that many DV tape based cameramen never did. Files are much easier to backup than tapes but you need to have more computer knowledge to get it right.

You can contact me at http://tombassford.org
People interested in live production might like to check out http://atemuser.com