16.9 anamorphic capture

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jennymg
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Hi I am reluctantly giving 16.9 a try. Panasonic NV GS 400 has a cinama mode and FCP has a preset for 16.9 So far I have just done a test capture and edit and am watching it on a 4.3 TV. Where it looks ok .
Is there any way of testing other than running out and buying new TVs. Yes I suppose I could take my footage and try in a store but if unedited would that matter? OK I can place onto tape the edited version and test that.
Has any one used this camera and FCPHD (4) in this format and has it worked. I say reluctantly as in OZ we are still hanging onto our 4.3 TVs.
thanks jennymg

jenny lives downunder
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jennymg
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Further I took both edited and unedited footage into local store and watched it on a wide screen TV. Results are: unedited footage fine, just a small amount of letterboxing, Edited footage, having made what I thought were appropriate changes in FCPHD, 4, was so letterboxed as to be unusable. I added a title and two different transitions to check those aspects too. I have read FCP manual and changed, before capture the capture setting to 16.9. So now I do need help as I dont know what to do next. The footage shot in 16.9 is fine but the problem is in the editing.

jenny lives downunder
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Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
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mooblie
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Jenny, if the footage was "so letterboxed as to be unusable" ... on a 16:9 tv??.... you must have used the wrong settings somewhere - there shouldn't be any letterboxing visible at all surely?

Are you saying you saw black bands at the top and bottom of the screen on a 16:9 screen?

Are you sure you shot, captured, sequenced, edited, DVD encoded and authored as 16:9 anamorphic throughout? If so, the visible picture should certainly fill a 16:9 TV screen. If you saw bands, some setting was not right.

Was your "bad" footage, displaying the wrong aspect ratio too? I.e. probably subjects looking too wide?

My first guess is the sequence was not set up (before you dropped clips onto it) with the "anamorphic" checkbox checked.

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

jennymg
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Hi Mooblie Yes I did see black bands on the wide screen TV both top and bottom.
I set FCP to DV PAL 48 kHz Anamorphic in both the capture and sequence presets, read the manual and thought I would be OK but not so . I did this before creating a new project and checked that the new set-up was ok before doing the capture. Apple will only address the problem if I pay and thats not on especially when we have people able to help here.
As far as I could tell both lots of footage ie the raw and the edited displayed ok certainly without detailed analysis both were acceptable just very reduced in the edited version. No problem with loss of resolution either.
Wondering still.
thanks jennymg

jenny lives downunder
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doolahroak
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Hi Jenny

I'm just wondering if the problem may lie in the footage that you shot.

I dont have any knowledge of your camera, but I could try and explain in terms of my Panasonic DVX100.

The DVX has three aspect settings. 4:3, letterbox and squeeze. 4:3 is a given but the other two differ quite significantly.

What letterbox does is basically take a 4:3 picture and introduce black bars to the top and bottom reflecting what you would expect to see on a 4:3 TV when watching a 1:85 widescreen production. It isn't really widescreen but just gives the impression when viewed on a 4:3 set. In fact it is a 4:3 picture with the top and bottom cut off with black bars.

Squeeze mode works a little differently. It digitally alters the picture but does not use black bars. When shooting in this mode people will look tall and thin in your camera viewfinder or LCD. There will (I expect) be no black bars when shooting.

This footage can then be imported via the anamorphic setting in log and capture. then set your sequence to anamorphic and the footage will un-squeeze in your time line viewer when placed on the time line. Be sure that your clip is checked as anamorphic and your sequence is likewise before you drop the clip into the sequence.

Phew! Rambling on a bit here. I guess the bottom line is, if you saw black bars when you were shooting you were likely in a letterbox style mode. Therefore the footage shot would be 4:3 with black bars which would appear normal on a 4:3 TV. When playing this footage on a 16:9 TV, the TV would do what it automatically does and stretch it to fit the screen. This would account for the unusual size of the black bars on the 16:9 display.

Could be off the mark but in my experience that sounds like what has happened.

Did you see black bars when you were editing in final cut. If so, I would say this is definately the reason.

Hope this helps

Jon

mooblie
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I'm with Jon - I suspect your camera is set to produce a letterboxed 16:9 image BETWEEN black bands in a non-anamorphic 4:3 format.

And BTW: what are you using to play the end result footage into the final TV/monitor?

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

Mad_mardy
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This is what i thought mooblie but i checked the specs for this camera and it does indeed film anamorphic with two different settings
1) standard anamorphic 16:9
2) a super cinema mode where it is made to look progrssive and alter the contrast.
i couldn't see any reference to letterboxing

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mooblie
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OK.... if it's truly anamorphic out of the camera:

Jenny:
(a) does the 16:9 image fill FCP's canvas and viewer windows? (i.e. the two windows are widescreen shape with no black bands round the footage?)
(b) what are you doing to the footage to put it out to a TV?

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

jennymg
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Joined: Oct 17 2002

thanks all
I tried doing a cap/seq setting of 4.3 thinking this might be the answer as I had already shot in 16.9 now this does look OK as an edited version. I haven't taken it to 'town' yet to try on the widescreen TV in a store there but it looks much more like the shot version. From what I have been able to find out about the Panasonic it seems as though it is a 'real' 16.9 as well as having the 'cinema' setting for more film like footage. ( as mentioned above by Mad_Mardy) Home output is onto a 4.3 TV via a Sony GV-D1000E player which does recognise 16.9 according to the manual.
Yes Mooblie the view on both Canvas and Viewer has letterboxed bands but nowhere near the first edited version. It just looks as you would expect 16.9 to look on a 4.3 monitor and Jon on the store widescreen the view was good no distortion just huge bands. Feel better now it looks as though the problem is solved even if it defies logic.
cheers jennymg

jenny lives downunder
by the sea near Byron
Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
Mac

mooblie
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Jenny, before you leave it:

When I capture and edit true (anamorphic 16:9) footage on FCP, there are NO black bands in the Viewer or Canvas window at all - and those windows are true 16:9 aspect ratio, full of non-distorted picture, so I suspect you are NOT capturing or even filming as true (anamorphic) 16:9.

I would expect, as you say: "16:9 on a 4:3 monitor" to look squashed in from the sides, filling the screen, with no black bands.

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

jennymg
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OK Mooblie I have been able to use a Canon XL1 which obviously does have true anamorphic capture. When viewed on 4.3 settings for FCP no bands. The panasonic has bands but only small. Please tell me if you capture in anamorphic or 4.3 and does square or non-square pixels have anything to do with the problem.
cheers Jenny

jenny lives downunder
by the sea near Byron
Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
Mac

doolahroak
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This is confusing me. Just got back from a wedding shoot so might not have a full compliment of brain cells.

Jenny, the XL1 does not shoot true anamorphic. The XL2 does (about the only thing going for it).

I think it has the squeeze function as I mentioned with the DVX100 which simulates an anamorphic picture. It would help if you could post which setting you were using on the XL1.

If there are no bands on the 4:3 FCP settings, does the picture looked squashed i.e do people look tall and thin? If so, then I would presume you have shoot footage using the anamorphic simulation. If you switch to anamorphic in FCP the window should change to the aspect of a 16:9 TV and the footage should unsqueeze itself. As Mooblie pointed out, the anamorphic footage should show no bars when being viewed this way.

Hope this helps

Jon

mooblie
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What Jon said. :)

If your camera is producing true anamorphic output, then:

(a) capture in FCP ensuring you use Log and Capture: Cature Settings set to "DV PAL 48kHz Anamorphic", and

(b) BEFORE you place any clips on a timeline, ensure the Sequence Settings:General are set to "720x576 CCIR 601/DV PAL (5:4)" and Anamorphic 16:9 checked.

Doesn't really matter about the "Show as Square pixels" setting on the canvas and viewer windows - I believe it only affects the speed of screen drawing during editing and the displayed aspect ratio - and doesn't change any captured data. It defaults to "on" I believe.

Then: no black bands anywhere! ...and a widescreen canvas and viewer to boot!

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

jennymg
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OK latest tests' Canon XL1 set in 16.9 through the menu system as is the Panasonic NV GS 400. FCP set to anamorphic DV PAL in both the sequence and capture settings. I tried using that setting then outputing to tape and as a blind I used the 4.3 setting . Interestingly although the aboriginal dot painting showed up as more squeezed on my 4.3 TV, in fact when I played them all back on the stores widescreen TV there was very little to choose between. I must have done something odd in the first tests as the letter boxed effect , especially on the Pana was extreme. So now I think I need to buy a wide screen TV and really concentrate to find the differences.
I did get the wide screen canvas and viewer.
So is the use of 16.9 wide spread, (pun intended), I would especially like to know about the wedding video makers rather than doc/drama makers. As I mostly do travel for sale back to the other participants on trips. I figure these folk are average punters who are happy to see a well lighted/well composed picture on 4.3 rather than broadcast qualifications.
cheers Jenny who is rather enjoying the cricket day 4 has been excellent...Australia V R.S.Africa

jenny lives downunder
by the sea near Byron
Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
Mac

mooblie
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Here in UK, you can now only buy new TVs (for any size above "portable") that are widescreen. The only place 4:3 new sets are used/sold now is, I believe, for small bedroom/kitchen use. In fact, larger sets are also all flat now (LCD or Plasma) - the days of the big CRT (and certainly the big 4:3 CRT) are gone. You suggested that Australia is a bit later than UK in this respect?

(Glad you got FCP/WS sorted.)

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

jennymg
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Yes very backward in the Colonies. So what happens when you play all those 4.3 videos/DVDs on the widescreen. Do you get reverse distortion? Currently anything on commercial TV or the ABC for that matter does not show as a distorted picture, certainly there is some letterboxing but not on everything. Very curious
cheers Jenny

jenny lives downunder
by the sea near Byron
Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
Mac

doolahroak
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Hi Jenny

Yes, a 4:3 picture on a widescreen TV will stretch horizontally and make people look a little short and fat. However, you can easily set your 16:9 TV up for a 4:3 picture (usually by the touch of a button). In this mode the display will be correct but black bars appear at the side of the screen to achieve the aspect ratio.

The strangest thing about the UK is that although all new TVs are 16:9 there is actually very little 16:9 programming ( in my opinion). There are a good few programmes in 14:9 and I can only assume this is to try a please most of the folk most of the time (reduces the black bar size on 4:3 sets and introduces small bars on 16:9 sets).

I do actually wondered why I bought a 16:9 TV when very few programmes are actually in 16:9. Good for DVDs I suppose, but them again I have a 80" 16:9 projector screen so I watch most of my films on that.

Cheers for now

jon

jennymg
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OK its good to know that one can adjust the picture because the same goes here very few programmes actually use the widescreen. The items that do advertise the fact that
'this is available for viewing in Wide Screen'
However anyone making anything for broadcast here in OZ has to submit in 16.9 and thats been so for about a year I think.
I'm doing a shoot this morning of an Aboriginal Gallery/Museum so think I will go the 16.9 just to be on the safe side. As one friend said you can do an adjust size if necessaary. I guess you could try for about a 14.9 and cover all bases. I mean do one as proper 16.9 and have the other as an option.
Thanks it is an interesting subject Jenny

jenny lives downunder
by the sea near Byron
Bay and loves it and
the fact that she uses a
Mac