BBC has problems with "tapeless"....

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infocus2
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A rare bit of holding up your hands and saying "we got it badly wrong".   http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-22651126    Though maybe easier since it's coming from "untainted" new people who had no past responsibility for the problems (Tony Hall and James Purnell}  I don't doubt that "tapeless" working has it's merits, but this shows that the cry of "tape is dead" that some (especially within the BBC) were saying nearly 10 years ago was hugely and naively over optimistic, certainly at the time. 
FreeFlow
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
It appears to be that it isn't that a fully digital system that has failed, but that since the project was first started there are now many off the shelf systems available that do the same thing but are far cheaper. Still, I would wager that a lot of lessons were learnt while developing the project that may be taken forward in other ways. Rarely are projects of this scale really as cut and dried as "that was a waste of time, let's just scrap it all".
infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
FreeFlow wrote:
It appears to be that it isn't that a fully digital system that has failed, but that since the project was first started there are now many off the shelf systems available that do the same thing but are far cheaper.

From what I hear, the problem was more like entering to run a marathon before you could walk. I don't think many people disagree that in principle  the "tapeless" concept is the way of the future - but as with many things, it can often be extremely foolish to try to force "the future" too soon. That's especially true the more complex the project - and DMI was not just a production system, it was (supposed to be!) a complete end to end system from production, through post, playout and to and from the archive. It's worth reading what the Guardian has to say about it - http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2013/may/24/bbc-digital-media-initiative-failure . In particular, ""This is because much of the software and hardware which has been developed could only be used by the BBC if the project were completed, a course of action which, due to technological difficulties and changes to business needs, would be, I fear, equivalent to throwing good money after bad."

RayL
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
Beeb computer problems? 'Twas ever thus. Back in the 1990s, while non-operational managers were obsessed with 'Visions' and 'Mission Statements', the operational departments at Television Centre staggered on, each with their own computer system.
 
Programme Planning had a system. Studio Operations had a system. Scenic Servicing had a system, etc, etc. To transfer information from one department to another, it was printed out by the first department, then keyed in by the next.  Wonderful.
 
To do the technical costings for shows costing umpteen thousand pounds, my colleagues and I in Studio Ops just had an Excel spreadsheet devised by one of our number (which of course had to be printed out before we could present it to the show's production team). 
 
The problem was solved, of course, by getting rid of all the operational departments. What a brilliant idea! And if we don't have any of those people and their problems then we don't need a place for them to work! Get rid of Television Centre! Doubly brilliant!
 
Ray
rt2000
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
 
Interesting article but I was intrigued by the 'reader comments' at the bottom, the second one in particular.
 
infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
rt2000 wrote:
Interesting article but I was intrigued by the 'reader comments' at the bottom, the second one in particular.

The second comment is really hitting the nail on the head in some respects, but is a bit out in other ways. The whole "tapeless" terminology was a bit of a red herring - "file based" may have been better wording - so basically the idea is that instead of dealing with video signals, you're dealing with video files. Accept that, and LTO tape for backing up makes complete sense. It's just not intended for the viewing purposes the author of the comment thinks. Secondly, it's important to remember that a big organisation has advantages over a very small one (economies of scale etc) - but also has complimentary disadvantages (far more difficult to structure any change). And if you change one significant aspect - you have to change everything else to go with it. By the sound of things, that's what went wrong. The project tried to be all encompassing, that meant unique systems to the BBC, so if details of it go wrong the whole workflow falls apart. Bearing in mind the fate of other very large IT based projects (NHS, anybody?) it shouldn't really be any surprise. Sometimes extremely clever IT people can show a remarkable lack of appreciation of what happens in the real world.

infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
I've just been reminded of one fact , which is that the original article I linked to actually understates the amount of money wasted. The £100m only relates to costs since the BBC took the project in house, not money spent when Siemens was in charge of implementation. Not only that, but the concept didn't start in 2008 - it was actually much earlier under the name of "Project Starwinder", which I seem to remember being discussed quite a lot on this forum some years ago?

See - http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/has-the-tapeless-future-arrived/158279.article . The whole idea of "tapeless" and Starwinder was well under way in May 2006 - which begs the question of how much money the BBC spent before 2008?
Quote:
The BBC, which estimates that it spends £8.5m a year transferring footage to and from tape, is at the forefront of the move towards tapeless and has three major projects involving it underway: Starwinder, Gateway and the Creative Desktop.

As with all projects of this nature the BBC involves itself in, controversy is never too far away. Starwinder, which according to BBC head of technology production Paul Cheesbrough, has a rolling brief to look at the spend on broadcast equipment and the transition to digital, is currently focusing on camera technology and has settled on the P2 and Grass Valley's new Infinity camera as its preferred acquisition formats.
One section of the Red Shark piece may be especially insightful with hindsight. It says:
Quote:
Secondly, don't attempt to build vertically integrated systems if you're a broadcaster. Just make sure that your equipment and systems use standard interfaces and protocols and buy the "best of breed" at each layer

 

Yet I seem to remember the BBC started off with a policy of "preferred technology suppliers" for Starwinder. As well as Panasonic P2 and Grass Valley Infinity for cameras, Adobe Premiere was chosen as the NLE of choice. Well, the poor Infinity vanished without trace, and from what I hear their recent major camera purchases have been from Sony, Canon and JVC, and Avid and FCP are the edit platforms of choice - I wonder how much going away from P2 and Premiere added to the £100m bill?
The figure given of "which estimates that it spends £8.5m a year transferring footage to and from tape" is interesting as well. They spent 10x the £8.5m figure in a couple of years on the now scrapped DMI - and that doesn't take any account of the appreciable costs that must need to spent on transferring material from cards to servers and LTO tape?
rt2000
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
A more encompassing view infocus, put in that way it makes sense. I think that given the BBC's reputation for R&D in the past they may have thought they could do something similar. I'm not sure about now but the BBC were always something/someone the rest of the industry looked at with some envy given some of their technological developments. I can remember a friend of mine spending many months trying to match the perfect RIAA curve and output characteristics of phono pre-amplifier similar to that designed by the BBC R&D unit for me. Nowadays there are a lot of people at ... shall I say the 'cutting edge' of technology and so the ball park is a more level playing field. Just my thoughts.
 
Ron
 
infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
rt2000 wrote:
I think that given the BBC's reputation for R&D in the past they may have thought they could do something similar. I'm not sure about now but the BBC were always something/someone the rest of the industry looked at with some envy given some of their technological developments.

Yes, but as well as some very good work they had some pretty spectacular lemons as well. The difference being that none of them were on the scale, or as far reaching as Starwinder/DMI, and/or were at a time when there was less direct accountability. (Though past direct accountability may have stopped some successes by too much risk aversion!)

 

As examples, VERA? Technologically brilliant, but at what cost - and rendered completely obsolete by Ampex before it was operational. DAB, even? Again, brilliant technology, but ahead of it's time. And being deployed with a non-upgradeable codec that was obsolete before the first set made market probably has put digital radio back decades. It really needed somebody to have the guts to kill it (yes, rendering existing DAB sets useless) and relaunch digital radio with a far more efficient compression system to make any idea of analogue radio switch off viable. 

 
Often, the brightest technical minds can be very blinkered. Be far too much into technology for it's own sake - not as serving the end user. Be instinctively drawn towards the "cutting edge" - even though in heart of hearts they must know it's flaky. In the early 1920's, if you had said "in a few decades time, global air transport will be more significant in passenger carrying than shipping" you'd have been looked back on as visionary. If you'd started to build an infrastructure of airports capable of handling millions, with an attitude of "the right planes will be there by the time we've finished", you'd have been insane. (And, probably, very soon bankrupt!)  The debate is not whether "tapeless" is the way of the future - it is - it's how you engineer the change to it. The Starwinder/DMI project mentality was simply crazy.
rt2000
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
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DAB, even? Again, brilliant technology, but ahead of it's time.
 
I remember well looking round at some of the first DAB receiver offerings only to be a bit disappointed when I read that there was likely to be a different system because the one launched was limited. Further reading led to the limitations of the codec and the fact there was no upgrade route. Needless to say I'm still with FM!
 
Quote:
Often, the brightest technical minds can be very blinkered. Be far too much into technology for it's own sake - not as serving the end user.

.... and here's an example

 
Another Now I know you may think that at my more mature age I shouldn't be playing on games console, but I do indulge as a form of relaxing though you could count on one had the times I play in a year and I only have nine games. Anyway, I've always used the xbox and now have the early version xbox and the 360. Why both, because in their infinite wisdom they are not backwards compatible on a number of games. When I heard that the new xbox1 was 4k capable I was impressed with the forward thinking, then I heard that it's not backwards compatible either, my understanding is you have to be connected to the internet and use their 'kinect' system and as far as I know you can't play a game without being connected. What seems a very forward thinking technology is leaving a huge customer base behind and I for one won't bother with the new system. I may be wrong with some of this and I've only read a small amount so far but like you said "too much into technology for it's own sake"!
 
Ron
 
infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
rt2000 wrote:
I remember well looking round at some of the first DAB receiver offerings only to be a bit disappointed when I read that there was likely to be a different system because the one launched was limited. Further reading led to the limitations of the codec and the fact there was no upgrade route. Needless to say I'm still with FM!

And you are far from alone! The basic engineering behind DAB was brilliant, and I was lucky enough to see a demonstration at a very early stage. But my memory is that one of the main perceived advantages at the time was a lot down to in-car use. Because two transmitters can be set up adjacent to one another on the same frequency, and only serve to add constructively, it meant that any network across the entire country would only need one frequency, and a listener in a car driving the breadth of the British Isles would be seamlessly passed from one transmitter to another with no retuning necessary. And all the time with perfect reception - no fading etc - due to the characteristics of the DAB signal. The other point given in it's favour was quality, digital techniques to give quality surpassing FM.

 

Well, that was the theory. Again, with hindsight it was put into service too soon. And the decision was taken to market it primarily on the basis of extra channels. With limited bandwidth available in the first place, that meant the channels had to be far more compressed than initially expected, and guess what? Quality suffered. So dramatically, that complaints led to the BBC being embarrassingly forced by Advertising Standards to withdraw a major advertising campaign on the grounds of misrepresentation. (Remember "1's and 0's" adverts about 15 years ago? Ever wondered why they stopped suddenly.....?) Worse, for a long time the transmitters broadcasting DAB were very limited, which made it's mobile and in-car features pointless. Worse still, the limited deployment gave it a bad name with early adopters who found themselves either getting a perfect reception - or total silence. Which was generally perceived as more disconcerting than the gradual fading and deterioration of the in-car FM signal.

 

As for the extra channels, I don't know how successful they are now, but for years the number of listeners were such that they were below the measuring scale, and even now they heavily rely on people listening by other means than DAB - online, Freeview, etc. Finally, it also didn't take early adopters long to find out that DAB sets ate batteries like there was no tomorrow, and effectively meant that "the radio" got tethered back to a mains point - back to pre-transistor days!

 

I'm not knocking digital radio per se - it was the "too much too soon" facets of the rollout that were wrong. For a very long time the number of listeners was very small - so little overall benefit there - but it saddled the UK with an outdated legacy problem by the time when technology had matured enough to make it worthwhile. That's in particular down to the codec used for compression, extremely inefficient by todays standards. But move to a modern system and all existing receivers get obsoleted overnight. Worth a read is http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/9657238/Radio-switchover-delayed-as-listeners-shun-digital.html but I think there may be a lot of spin going on even there. It says

Quote:
Digital sets were expected to account for half of all radio listening by 2013 but the figure stands at just 31.3 per cent.

Ofcom confirmed yesterday that the 50 per cent threshold — which the Government set as its trigger for a switchover — would not be reached by this time next year, as had been planned.

 I suspect that the 31.3% figure may not actually represent 31.3% of all radio listening, but rather the number of households with at least one DAB set. Which is not the same thing. We have a DAB set in the kitchen - but due to reception problems on DAB, it now spends it's entire life tuned to FM.

 

In the Telegraph article, the head of the industry body says (rather patronisingly) “A lot of people still don’t get it – they don’t understand what digital radio offers and why it’s important,” I think a lot of people get the importance only too well. Turn off analogue and they get money from selling off the spectrum. Or is that just too cynical?

infocus2
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
It may be worth adding that a better system than DAB is not just hypothetical - it exists, is called DAB+, and is what many countries intend to use for any rollout of digital radio services. Unfortunately, whilst a DAB+ radio can receive DAB broadcasts, the opposite isn't true, so moving the UK from DAB to DAB+ would mean obsoleting all existing radios. However, it seems that a lot of radios on sale today are DAB+, and if you intend to get a set it may be worth making sure it is DAB+, not only to futureproof in the event of any change, but also to use in other countries. This may be especially relevant if getting a car radio! Lots of other information (and teccy stuff about why DAB+ is so superior to DAB) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#DAB.2B
rt2000
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Re: BBC has problems with "tapeless"....
Quote:
Lots of other information (and teccy stuff about why DAB+ is so superior to DAB) at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Broadcasting#DAB.2B
 
Thanks for the link, informative. Worth re-exploring :)
 
Ron