Cine Film

18 replies [Last post]
Fergie
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Joined: Jan 9 2001

Has anyone ever managed to make a photo print by scanning one frame from an 8mm cine film. I am using an Epsom 1260 scanner and would like to know if it can be done.

Robert.

               
                  Fergie
There's only one eF in Ferguson

I now seem to spend a lot of time arguing with inanimate objects

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

I haven't scanned a Super 8 frame Robert, but I have photographed it and worked from the resulting slide. I now have Cibachrome prints from the original Kodachrome 40 Super 8 which are 14" wide, and they look good.

tom.

Fergie
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Joined: Jan 9 2001

Hi Tom.
Did you manage to project it onto a screen as a still image, or did you take a photo from the screen while the film was running. Was it a silver screen ?.

Cheers,
Robert.

               
                  Fergie
There's only one eF in Ferguson

I now seem to spend a lot of time arguing with inanimate objects

tim.callaghan
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Joined: Apr 4 2001

Yes it can be done on your scanner providing you have the film scanning attachment.

However I take a 3.3 mp photo with the image projected onto a large condenser lens.

Either way it will work

Tim

Fergie
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Joined: Jan 9 2001

Hi Tim,
Whats a condenser Lens ?
I have the film atachment but it wants to work in auto and will not allow manuel scanning. The result is a miniscule film frame and at 300 dpi, it won't enlarge by much.

Regards.
Robert.

               
                  Fergie
There's only one eF in Ferguson

I now seem to spend a lot of time arguing with inanimate objects

tim.callaghan
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Joined: Apr 4 2001

The condenser lens is essentially a big piece of glass, that the projected image hits, and forms a perfect flat image to the optical device capturing the image. There's probably much more optic science to it than that.

By using a diffused low wattage light source I can take the image from the condenser, capturing the image straight of the immulsion, compared to taking it off a screen. This gives better results.

Tim

[This message has been edited by tim.callaghan (edited 06 March 2003).]

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

Robert - none of your ideas. I made up a 4.2mm x 5.7mm mask and put the movie strip into my colour enlarger. Of course this effectively blocks nearly all the enlarger lamp, and the resulting image is small and dim. No worries, as you shall hear.

Then I placed my Canon SLR (loaded with Ektachrome 64 slide film) in the light path, facing upwards, fixed to a tripod. Remove the camera's lens and focus the enlarging lens so that through the SLR's viewfinder you see the frame of Super 8 bright, sharp and focused.

Then - using the SLR's lightmeter in the normal way simply bracket your exposures and print from the resulting transparency. Of course you're introducing an intermediate (analogue) step into the proceedings, but you know your enlarger has a fine lens and is being used at a good aperture.

If you project the footage you're using a so-so projector lens at maximum aperture and silver screens will simply hot-spot the image.

tom.

LesWinn
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Joined: Sep 3 2002

quote:Originally posted by R. Ferguson:
Has anyone ever managed to make a photo print by scanning one frame from an 8mm cine film. I am using an Epsom 1260 scanner and would like to know if it can be done.

Robert.

I'm new to this so please bear with me!I have much footage of Standard 8mm cine film, mostly 8ASA and 25ASA daylight Kodachrome plus some Kodachrome A 40ASA artificial light)shot with Bolex D8L & D8LA in period 1959 to 1986. Firstly the standard speed was 16fps and later 18fps became the standard. I had some transferred to video by Jessops but would like to do the processing myself. I have a friend who is professional but cannot be worried too much! He uses "Glassscreen Video-transfer" apparatus. by "Van Doornen Innovision". Address is Zuidplassatraat 1, 2751 GL Moerkapelle Holland Tel.:31-(0) 1793-1261. Telex:33781. I have tried writing to them but no reply. Perhaps they no longer exist? This projects the film onto a screen (looks like grease between to pieces of glass) via angled surface silvered mirror to camera. If anyone knows where this apparatus can be obtained I would like to know. UK enquiries have always drawn a blank. I hope to use my a Sony TRV20 with a Leitz Cinovid projector. The speed is not variable but it can be set for 50Hz and 60Hz asnd both at 18 and 24fps. The lens is standard so does not zoom. I hope all this will help others and may enlighten me too. LCW

Les

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

The Leitz Cinovid with it's prime (non-zoom) lens will be fine except for one problem Les - flicker. The Leitz will undoubetdly have a three bladed shutter and the 48Hz (at 18fps) will cause strobing on the transfer to 50Hz video.

Try it and see, that's the answer. If the projector will run at 16fps that may well be close enough to the ideal of 16 2/3rds FPS.

tom.

LesWinn
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Joined: Sep 3 2002

quote:Originally posted by tom hardwick:
The Leitz Cinovid with it's prime (non-zoom) lens will be fine except for one problem Les - flicker. The Leitz will undoubetdly have a three bladed shutter and the 48Hz (at 18fps) will cause strobing on the transfer to 50Hz video.

Try it and see, that's the answer. If the projector will run at 16fps that may well be close enough to the ideal of 16 2/3rds FPS.

tom.


Thank you for the answer Tom. I'm still hoping that I can locate the apparatus. Have you any idea what the substance is sandwiched between the glasses onto which the image is projected? LCW

Les

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999

http://www.stabilix.nl/glasscreen.htm
would get you one from holland

I paid about £130 for a kit consisting of Glasscreen, front surfaced mirror, stands and a box from Euro Photo Centre (Uxbridge)which I am told no longer exists.

The stuff is paraffin and wax inside optical glass.

It is a good system.
best of luck

try all the big cine sghops

lees cameras,
wide Screen centre
etc.

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999

This is the reply that I got from them - it would seem that there isn't a UK supplier any more

Thanks for your email of 6-06-2003 re Glasscreens.
You can place an order directly by us.

Several years ago we have taken over the business from Van Doornen.

The price for a standard-set Glasscreen no.52 is Euro 120,00
(dimensions Glasscreen 260 x 200 mm)
Packed in a box which is also a stand for the Glasscreen and Mirror

Shipment and handling cost Euro 15,00
Prices excl.19% VAT

Delivery-time: when order by return, from stock

Gladly your answer by return.

Best Regards,

Fred Schreuder
Stabilix B.V.

"F. Schreuder"

adgroberts
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Joined: Aug 22 2001

I have one of these Cine/Video converters but quite frankly do not use it as the resulting output is no better than digital video of the projected image. I use a pure white screen of A3 size keep the video camera as close as I can to parallel the projected image and use the best video shutter speed BUT unless you have a variable shutter speed on the projector you will get flicker. It is a whole lot cheaper option.
Regards
Tony Roberts

adgroberts

chiltz
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Joined: Oct 17 2003

I DO THIS ALL THE TIME FROM 8MM & SUPER8 - ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS CAPTURE THE SMALL CLIP WHERE THE STILLYOU REQUIRE IS ONTO THE TIME LINE IN PREM+ AND THATS IT - CAPTURE STILL FRAME - DONE

A.Howkins
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Joined: Sep 26 2002

Can I ask Chiltz what FPS does he run the 8mm film at?

I have been trying to get a good still photo from a lot of 1930s 16mm film. This was probably exposed at 17fps and I have tried both 18 and 24 on my projector to capture on video.(at 25fps!)

Getting a still from Premiere is easy but it is never sharp.

I did enquire the cost of a 16mm scanner but was told it would cost £2,500. I was about to try making a mask for my flat bed scanner which I think is where this thread started.

Arthur.

PS. Of course it could be that the original is not sharp, after all it was taken on a spring driven camera. It is OK for cine but maybe not for a still.

thor
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Joined: Sep 9 1999

So has anyone actually developed a cinifilm scanner?

To used a @ 4000 pixels per inch or 4000/25mm = 160 pixels per millimeter
A previous post said the frame is 4.2mm x 5.7 So each frame would be 672 x 912 - not great for enlargements :-(

How about a digital camera with macro and an old projector or editor to move the film. Take a picture of each frame, use the video editor software to assemble a sequences (did a time laps cloud scape what way) A film would be 4 x 60 x 18 or about 4300 frames.

Anyone tried it?

BTW I have had several attempts at cini to video. Using a Digital 8 Sony the flickering was disturbing. An older Hitachi Hi8 gave much smoother results. Maybe the newer ccd just reacts too quickly?

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999

I think your flicker has more to do with the speed of the cine projector than the CCD characteristics. If you have a three-bladed shutter in your projector (and most of them were) then you're shown each cine frame three times, then the pull down happens and you see the next frame three times and so on. This gives a 48Hz flicker rate and this of course conflicts with the 50Hz PAL system you're using to record it.

The answer is to run the projector at 16.666 fps. The 18fps Super-8 footage will look a little slow and Standard-8 footage will look a bit fast, but this is easily fixed on the timeline.

As I've said above - each tiny Kodachrome frame holds a wealth of information as my 14" wide Cibachrome prints prove. But it's a long and winding road getting there.

tom.

adgroberts
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Joined: Aug 22 2001

I think I would agree with Thor here. I transferred a lot of Standard 8 cine to Hi8 video. There was flicker but it was fairly minimal projected at 18fps. Changing to Digital8 DV produced much worse flicker which cannot be removed by a deflicker utility. The only answer with DV seems to be projection at 16 2/3 fps, but that is not so vital with Hi8.
regards
Tony Roberts

adgroberts

Z Cheema
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Joined: Nov 17 2003

quote:Originally posted by tom hardwick:
I think your flicker has more to do with the speed of the cine projector than the CCD characteristics. .

Not necessarily the case, if you use a fast shutter speed on a camera and look at a digital clock on say your VCR you can see the digits fire up in sequence.

If you use an old tube camera the flicker disappears due to the persistence of the tube.

I would try a slower shutter on the camera if possible and also a bit of blu-tack in in the middle of the projector to help reduce that hot spot in the middle of the screen.