Clapperboard or alternative

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andy-n
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Joined: Aug 14 2000

Hi
We hope to combine footage from at least 2 DV cameras and off camera sound recording (DAT or Minidisk) and Being a novice editor, I was wondering the best way to sync everything together in Premiere.

The traditional clapperboard might be a bit too intrusive in our situation, so is there an alternative that will assist syncing picture and sound, or am I going to be looking at it frame by frame?

Thanks

Andy

Andy-n

Mad_mardy
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Joined: Oct 19 2000

some people recomend using a camera flash gun
and using the obvious light and the pop,but i would rather use a clapper

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

Rookie
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Joined: Sep 27 1999

The REALLY High-tech solution:

Get one of the actors to clap his hands. As long as it is clearly visible from both cameras this should work nicely.

Mad_mardy
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Joined: Oct 19 2000

it is unfair and unwise to ask an actor to do this.Coming from an acting background i know that most actors do not want to know or care about the tech side once on set,they are trying to concentrate on what they are going to do.You could end up at start of each shot looking like the actor is not in charactor
and is purely standing in front of the camera for no reason.
I know this might sound pretentious but from experience involving myself trying to direct and act at the same time found my acting to be quite bad.get a member of the crew to do it instead.
out of interest why is a clapper board to intrusive?

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

RichardJ
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Joined: May 7 1999

Andy

There's an article on my site (below) on how I did this with MediaStudio. You should be able to adapt to Prem quite easily.

------------------
Richard Jones, http://www.activeservice.co.uk
Home of the new MediaStudio Pro 6 Tutorial

Richard Jones, http://www.activeservice.co.uk
Home of the MediaStudio Pro Tutorial - Edition 3 for MSP 7

Rookie
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Joined: Sep 27 1999

I was only trying to help...

quote:Originally posted by Mad_mardy:
it is unfair and unwise to ask an actor to do this... ...get a member of the crew to do it instead.

OK, fair point I guess. So Mr. Andy-N:

Get one of the CREW to clap his hands. As long as it is clearly visible from both cameras this should work nicely.

It's also worthwhile to keep in mind that this can be done at the end of the take, as well as at the begining. (But you probably already knew that - right?)

Mad_mardy
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Joined: Oct 19 2000

Sorry Rookie i didn't mean to bite your head off,bad day and very tired.

Garry

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

andy-n
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Joined: Aug 14 2000

Hi all

Thanks for you input. I find what I do know is far outweighed by what I don't.

This is going to be a video of a board meeting, cutting between wideangle (to cover my mistakes) close ups, presentation material, other video clips and off camera sound aswell - probably a continuous shoot. I get the feeling they don't want someone clapping through the meeting. So I'm looking for the easy way out I suppose

Plus the fact that I am the crew in this case (too many hats!) Basically I'm a Graphic Designer/Artist, becoming an editor, trying to learn everything else involved with film at the same time and the only one here who knows anything about it at all.

Its rather daunting.

So I do appreciate all your help, though I guess I'm going to have to do this the long way in the end.

Andy

Great website Richard. That will take some digesting at my leisure.

[This message has been edited by andy-n (edited 22 August 2001).]

Andy-n

Rookie
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Joined: Sep 27 1999

quote:Originally posted by Mad_mardy:
Sorry Rookie i didn't mean to bite your head off,bad day and very tired.



Don't worry, nothing a little gaffer-tape can't take care of.
Mad_mardy
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Joined: Oct 19 2000

should of said this earlier but why don't u
record the sound onto one of the cameras?
i have heard of minidisc problems with sequences over about 15 mins although others including me have had no problem.
also you could start the cameras rolling before the meeting starts and clapper it or at the end as previously suggested

[This message has been edited by Mad_mardy (edited 22 August 2001).]

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

Paul Rossi
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Joined: Jun 15 1999

Andy,

Why don't you just ensure that both cameras are pointing in the same direction at the start of the meeting, e.g. when the chairperson stands up. It shouldn't be too difficult then to sync up both tapes and run from there.

I would have though there would have been some relatively quiet gaps in the audio at times throughout the meeting, so when it starts again you will have an opportunity to match up the audio signals too throughout the editing.

Just a thought but good luck with the shoot.

Regards,

Paul

You can't edit what you haven't got.

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999

I'd agree with Paul.

Forget flashes - just use the sound to sync
Although it depends on the running time of the meeting, I'd start the w/a camera, then minidisc, then the main camera. either just talk to yourself out loud, or clap. you can do this before the main parties arrive. Not many meetings last more than 60 - 80 mins.
All you need do is establish the offset between the time codes. So long as the recordings are continuous, the offset will be locked. If you do need to change tapes, listen for a point to use again. I used to do this a lot with linear, just listen to both tapes, and adjust one untill there is no echo. If you can't hear it, the punters won't. it doesn't matter if you're a frame out.
Why use minidisc?
I'd blutac an omni tie clip mic nearer the chairman but on the table and run it back to the main camera. you could still use minidisc as a backup. the w/a shot can use a built in mic if you don't have access to loads, or use it as another audio recorder, with the mic perhaps near a flipchart, or whatever.
Although not brill, Audio Technica do a decent tie clip for about £25-30 - as used on BBC's Video diaries. You can hang them from the ceiling as spot mics if you need to. The batt lasts about 7-10 days, so you can fit them up in advance.

By filming most of the stuff with the main sync'd camera, you cut the work by about half. Then paste the less critical w/a shot ove the top to hide the main camera movements. I'd ask for copies of all ohp's/ powerpoint shows etc and stick 'em in after - although you shouls make an effort to catch some of them "live " to help you navigate the edit.

take cans and be aware of OHPs and Data projectors. some equipment fans sound like blinkin' rockets.

andy-n
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Joined: Aug 14 2000

A great help guys, and plenty of fresh ideas. Its amazing how you can get stuck in one train of thought.

The proposed meeting is a little way off yet, so I'll have time to practice multi camera mixing.

Thanks for the tips and I hope they may help others too.

Andy

Andy-n

Des
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Joined: Apr 7 1999

What about as someone has already suggested, pointing the second camera at the view seen by the main camera, start both cameras at roughly the same time and when you come to edit lay the second camera over the main camera with a 50% transparency - line up the two visually first then line up the sound tracks next by thier waveforms. Play both together to check the accuracy and fiddle the few frames around til you get accuracy.

I regularly do 2 camera shoots and get frame accuracy within 2-3 minutes. I even seem to get frame accuracy at the end of 15 minute takes. The important thing to do is to make sure the second camera is ALWAYS ON as long as the main camera.

At editing, put the main camera on the top track and do an insert edit on the track underneath (in MS Studio Pro 6). By playing the second camera at 50% transparency you can see when to put the second camera into play.

Des

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Mad_mardy
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Joined: Oct 19 2000

just think of all that rendering

System 1: AMD X6 2.8, M4A79 Deluxe, 4GB DDR2, ATI HD4870 1GB DDR 3, 2TB total drive space, Matrox RTX 2, Premiere Pro CS4

System 2: AMD X2 5600, M2NPV-VM, 2GB DDR2, Geforce 8600GT 256 DDR 3, 450GB Total drive space, RTX100 with Premiere Pro 2

Camera's: JVC HD200, JVC HD101, 2X Sony HC62

Des
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Joined: Apr 7 1999

Only the transitions and there don't have to be any. The 50% is only for scrubbing to get a lineup. Where's the rendering?

Des

Sony Z1 / A1E / PD100 - Avid Liquid 7.1 - 2.66GHZ Core 2 Duo / ATI 950 Pro / 2 x Iiyama 17" flat screens
Storage: 1 x 80GB / 2 x 400GB / Offline Firewire 1 x 2TB and 3 x 400GB