Corruption! Turn off the camera before the battery dies

30 replies [Last post]
tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

It's a bit of a heart-stopping moment at a wedding. I'd already filled the 16gig card A with 1080/50i, the Sony NX5 had automatically switched to card B and all was well. Halfway through the groom's speech my NPF760 battery powering my NX5 suddenly signalled 'battery low' with a flashing battery icon mid screen. I didn't know if this meant I had 5 minutes left or 5 seconds, so, with spare battery in my right hand I let the battery poop out and the camera shut down. You never know - it might happen between speeches ...

Click, slide, slide click, on goes the fresh battery. I turn on the camera again but all sorts of distress warning symbols appear on screen, one of which was, 'cannot record to card B, corruption' or words to that effect. Speeches continue uninterrupted of course, so ever the pro I replace the SDHC Transcend 16 gig card and press the NX5's little button - record to this new card B. This all takes valuable time.

Speeches end and I take the opportunity to replay the card in camera. Nothing. Cannot replay HD movies, corruption. Did I want to try a repair? I sure did, and tapped the yes on screen. Still nothing. All is not lost, I'm a two camera man and the backup has continued over the join but in long shot, its audio gathered from its own top-table radio mic.

At home on Sony's Content management Utility (CMU) a warning appeared: 'HD movies that do not have management information have been found. HD movies without management info cannot be recognised by the camcorder but can be imported by the PC'. HD Movie Recovery appeared in the CMU.

The results are usable but not right. There's no audio waveform associated with these long speeches and as soon as I try and play the timeline Edius 6.03 crashes. Today I've had more Edius crashes than years of Premiere 6.5, which is saying something.

I tried exporting the file to tape, to file, to DVD - all crashed Edius.

I then unlinked the audio from the video (I'll try anything), changed the project settings to SD 16:9, and moved audio and video apart on the timeline. Relief - I could now capture it to my DSR11 as the timeline played. There's a lot of syncing up to do later, but the moral is this:

Don't let your battery poop out on you if you're file-based recording. Leastwise not on a Sony NX5.

tom.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
tom hardwick wrote:
Don't let your battery poop out on you if you're file-based recording. Leastwise not on a Sony NX5.

tom.

Abso-bloody-lutely. Not on any camera that records to cards. The file based camera has to finish closing the file. If you let the power run out it doesn't get the chance to do that, and the result is a corrupt file and lots of trouble, as you've just discovered.

If I were you I would relegate that NPF760 to less critical duties. I suspect its Infolithium brain has gone, and it'll no longer give you accurate readings. I've had exactly the same with some of my older batteries: the battery life indicator suddenly goes from 60 minutes to 5 minutes and gives you the warning. No-one needs that to happen. If it's a 760 then it must be a few years old. Time to retire it.

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

Dave R Smith
Offline
Joined: May 10 2005

I'm still on 'ole faithful Z1E, but in light of your experience, I wonder:

I'm assuming your content was one long take, therefore corruption will be on the current file which couldn't close the build.

If you had taken one or more previous takes, would a battery/power termination mean corruption mean it's only the last take/file that's corrupt, or would it also affect index files and effectively corrupt the preceding takes as well.

If the former, it may be good practice where practical to do a periodic stop/start of recording to 'lock' the recordings as safe/retrievable.

It may be worth setting this up as test?
I assume there isn't a menu setting to finalise long takes in interim shorter sections, say 5 minutes, so these 5 minute files are saved whilst recording, without having to stop/start for safety?

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

It's not just on card-based systems, a dying battery can cause problems on ANY recording system. Never let the battery die while you're recording, it's asking for trouble.

That said, it's interesting that unlinking 'fixed' it. To be honest, that would have been my first move.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
Alan Roberts wrote:
That said, it's interesting that unlinking 'fixed' it. To be honest, that would have been my first move.

I presume that one of the things that "closing" a file does, when you stop recording normally, is muxing the video and audio.

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

Tony7
Offline
Joined: Mar 21 2001
tom hardwick wrote:
so, with spare battery in my right hand I let the battery poop out and the camera shut down.

Tom, maybe I misread the above but did you not switch the camera off first?

Tony.
Asrock Z68 Extreme7 --i7-2700K --Edius Pro7--HDStorm+ --16GB Kingston HyperX--GTX 560Ti--AX850 PSU--MxM PCI-e Reader--Win8.1 Pro 64bit

Dave R Smith
Offline
Joined: May 10 2005
Alan Roberts wrote:
It's not just on card-based systems, a dying battery can cause problems on ANY recording system. Never let the battery die while you're recording, it's asking for trouble.

Not for tape based camera the luddites shout out.;)

The risks for solid state media are currently

i) Knock the battery release button by mistake
ii) Battery dies prematurely (manned)
iii) Battery dies whilst unmanned on 'locked off' camera.

and any of the above means your content is screwed.

Logistics and/or crewing levels don't always permit constant monitoring of each and every camera.

If the camera can be set for 'saving' at 5 minute intervals, risk is reduced to the last 5 minutes - not the preceding hour.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
Dave R Smith wrote:
Not for tape based camera the luddites shout out.;)

Not so if you're recording any kind of long GOP format. So, for example, recording HDV to tape on a Z1 you're still going to lose some frames if the battery dies. Sure, it's just a few frames, but it's not nothing.

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999
Tony7 wrote:
Tom, did you not switch the camera off first?

To my shame I didn't. It was off anyway and my one aim in life at that point was to get it up and recording again as quickly as possible.

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Dave, if you're recording MPEG onto tape, and disconnect power unexpectedly, you'll get crap on the tape. You might even get the tape mangled because it wasn't withdrawn from the heads properly. It's dangerous to assume you can simply remove power when recording, whatever the medium or format.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Tony7
Offline
Joined: Mar 21 2001
tom hardwick wrote:
To my shame I didn't. It was off anyway and my one aim in life at that point was to get it up and recording again as quickly as possible.

I understand Tom, sorry to hear about your misfortune, a real pity
and your right, even 5 or 10 seconds seams like an enternty.

Good luck anyhow.

Tony.
Asrock Z68 Extreme7 --i7-2700K --Edius Pro7--HDStorm+ --16GB Kingston HyperX--GTX 560Ti--AX850 PSU--MxM PCI-e Reader--Win8.1 Pro 64bit

Dave R Smith
Offline
Joined: May 10 2005
Alan Roberts wrote:
It's dangerous to assume you can simply remove power when recording, whatever the medium or format.

I agree, but that isn't what I said.
I'm referring to damage limitation for worst case scenario of unplanned event.
You still wear your seat belt even if your brakes work.;)

Mark - In contrast to Toms' scenario of potentially losing the preceding hour I find the fear of media lost on tape much less than solid state.
In fact I don't fear tape failure. I know what technical hitches can occur and plan for them - .e.g. do carry back up cameras. For solid state, it would be a concern.

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

Of course if I wasn't so tight I'd splash out on Sony's FMU128 and record a simultaneous backup. But at £725 it's £5.67/gb against Transcend cards at something like 90p/gb. Ouch. And it too would be subject to power failure corruption while using more power/minute.

I wonder how many FMU128s Sony sells? At that price it sounds like SDHC cards from 4 or 5 years ago (which is probably when it was priced).

tom.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999

It's all about risk assessment.

Dave R Smith wrote:
The risks for solid state media are currently
i) Knock the battery release button by mistake

That's so unlikely as to be laughable. How hard is it to dislodge the battery from your Z1? Be honest: it's not easy, is it? Not only do you have to press down the battery release button by several millimetres but you also have to slide the battery up and off its retaining springs before the power cuts off. That's really going to happen? On my EX1s the battery release button is recessed. It's never going to get knocked accidentally.

Dave R Smith wrote:
ii) Battery dies prematurely (manned)

I've never known a battery just go "phut". Usually it's exactly what happened to Tom: The indicator goes from lots to a little. You still have battery time left to press "stop", let the file write, and turn off. You lose a few seconds. Less than you'd lose changing a tape.

Dave R Smith wrote:
iii) Battery dies whilst unmanned on 'locked off' camera.

Again, the odds on that happening are so small as to be negligible, and you can minimise that risk by making sure your batteries are fully charged and by renewing them on a regular basis or on the first sign of something going amiss.
I truly hope Tom'll never use that particular battery again.

Of course the battery dying whilst unmanned on 'locked off' camera is less likely to happen to you with your Z1 than someone shooting to solid state because you have to change tapes every 63 minutes :D , so you're checking on the camera hourly.

I think that the risks you present are controllable and, in practice, seldom happen.
Even in that rare situation where your battery suddenly dies - and how often does that happen - the situation isn't disastrous unless you do something absurdly stupid like Tom did. If he'd pushed the "stop" button, waited for the file to finalise, and changed batteries like any sensible person we wouldn't be writing in this thread. Sorry, but Tom's problems are due to operator error and nothing else.

I have never yet (touch wood) lost any footage due to card failure or solid state recording problems in three years of shooting exclusively to solid state.
In that time I've saved hundreds and hundreds of hours of ingest time.
I haven't been limited to DV or HDV like people who stick to tape are.
I've created a backup system far more robust than a tape archive: my original video files are copied and stored offsite, while my tape archive has all its eggs in the one basket.

No, sorry, the benefits of solid state recording totally outweigh the disadvantages. You're welcome to your Luddite tendencies, Dave, but there's no way I'd ever consider going back to tape!

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Mark, I'm with you there. Solid state wins hands down every time, but it calls for a different system of data management, a different discipline. One which has to be learnt and adhered to to minimise the risks.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Dave R Smith
Offline
Joined: May 10 2005
Mark M wrote:
It's all about risk assessment.

Exactly.
That's why I'm asking these questions. I read of these problems here, but really don't know how common they are.

Just because I haven't personally encountered a loss scenario, doesn't mean it can't happen, so by looking at instances such as Toms, it's a good opportunity to review procedures.

>I've created a backup system far more robust than a tape archive: my original video files are copied and stored offsite,

The chances of your house burning down are remote are they not?
So it's a precaution - ia sensible precaution - no different.

I'm not pro either camp - each has its merits.

Now where's that abacus. :D

Dave R Smith
Offline
Joined: May 10 2005
Alan Roberts wrote:
Mark, I'm with you there. Solid state wins hands down every time, but it calls for a different system of data management, a different discipline. One which has to be learnt and adhered to to minimise the risks.

When I was invited to see the latest Panasonic solid state camera, and I asked about their reccomended back-up procedures, the 2 Panasonic reps reccomended tape!
Well it tickled me.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
Dave R Smith wrote:
When I was invited to see the latest Panasonic solid state camera, and I asked about their reccomended back-up procedures, the 2 Panasonic reps reccomended tape!
Well it tickled me.

I imagine they meant LTO tape!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Tape-Open

Which is what I'd use if I could afford it!

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
Dave R Smith wrote:
Exactly.
That's why I'm asking these questions. I read of these problems here, but really don't know how common they are.

Well, as in any internet forum, we see the problems not the everyday smooth running.
People come here in crisis, and to seek help, but seldom to say "I was shooting all day and it went just fine, no recording issues and the footage looks fine, then I edited all night and the computer didn't crash once and today I tried the Blu-ray disc in 31 players and it worked in all of them!" . That's the norm, not the exception in real life, but the posts here reflect the exception and not the norm, so we do get a view of the process skewed towards failure rather than success. No wonder it can come across as risky!

Dave R Smith wrote:
The chances of your house burning down are remote are they not?
So it's a precaution - ia sensible precaution - no different.

Indeed the chances of my house burning down are remote. Which is why my backups are stored there. I'm more concerned about my studio getting burgled, flooded or riot damaged. Two of the three have happened!

Dave R Smith wrote:
Now where's that abacus. :D

I wouldn't count on finding it!

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

mooblie
mooblie's picture
Offline
Joined: Apr 27 2001

I have been editing all day, and my NLE hasn't crashed at all, nor has my house burnt down once. (That should even the score up a bit.) :)

Martin - DVdoctor in moderation. Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

colin rowe
colin rowe's picture
Offline
Joined: Dec 16 2000

Did the battery just go dead, or had the charge been naturally depleted ? I ask, as I always put a fully charged battery in the cam before the speeches begin. Nobody ever knows just how long they are going to go on for, If it was a fully charged battery, I would agree with others, and not use it again.
Ah, the joys of weddings

Colin Rowe

tom hardwick
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

I used to use these 760 batteries on my 20DW2 halogen light and that used to upset the 'info' bit of the info-lithium, Colin. But I haven't used that lamp for some time so I suspect that the readouts are somewhat arbitrary.

I remember checking the time remaining before the speeches started and thinking all was well, but I suspect that the remain-time display goes from 60 mins to 2 mins in about 10 in this particular battery. Other than that it's fine.

But as I say - all is well now. The files were indeed written to the card, it's just that the camera can't access them if the power is cut off before write-completion. This can be a heart-pumping moment at a wedding yet there's no time to dwell, there's much more to do.

tom.

col lamb
Offline
Joined: Jan 2 2010

I know it is after the event, but I usually set up a second camcorder during the "slack period" before the reception starts and have that recording continuously just as a backup and also as a source for cutaways for a different view and as another sound source.

Your Panny 900 with a small shotgun mike will work a treat and if set in 1080i the video should be pretty well compatible with the Sony.

Col Lamb Lancashire UK ASUS P6X58D-E MOBO, 3.3GHz hex core i7 CPU, 12GB RAM, nVidia GTX580 GPU, W7 64bit, 500Gb boot, 1Tb RAID (Mirror) Store, 500Gb RAID (stripped), Edius 6.05, CS 5.5

Tony7
Offline
Joined: Mar 21 2001
tom hardwick wrote:
But as I say - all is well now. The files were indeed written to the card...

Glad to hear that Tom.

Tony.
Asrock Z68 Extreme7 --i7-2700K --Edius Pro7--HDStorm+ --16GB Kingston HyperX--GTX 560Ti--AX850 PSU--MxM PCI-e Reader--Win8.1 Pro 64bit

colin rowe
colin rowe's picture
Offline
Joined: Dec 16 2000
tom hardwick wrote:
I used to use these 760 batteries on my 20DW2 halogen light and that used to upset the 'info' bit of the info-lithium, Colin. But I haven't used that lamp for some time so I suspect that the readouts are somewhat arbitrary.

I remember checking the time remaining before the speeches started and thinking all was well, but I suspect that the remain-time display goes from 60 mins to 2 mins in about 10 in this particular battery. Other than that it's fine.

But as I say - all is well now. The files were indeed written to the card, it's just that the camera can't access them if the power is cut off before write-completion. This can be a heart-pumping moment at a wedding yet there's no time to dwell, there's much more to do.

tom.

I had a 760 act exactly like that, back in the days of the FX1. One minute fine, and showing ample charge, next minute, dead. it was relegated to none essential shooting. Glad you got it sorted, as you say, heart pumping moments.
BTW Tom, did the 1080p to AVCHD file coversion to HDD, using HD Writer work with your SD900 ?

Colin Rowe

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Mark's spot on. Here, we see the problems, and try to help, on the assumption that the fixes will help others who haven't had the problem (yet). I've had to spend a day rescuing a mangled tape, resulting from a DV recording stopped by power supply death. I wasn't easy and I lost about a minute of the recording. In engineering, anything that CAN happen WILL happen eventually.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999
tom hardwick wrote:
I remember checking the time remaining before the speeches started and thinking all was well, but I suspect that the remain-time display goes from 60 mins to 2 mins in about 10 in this particular battery. Other than that it's fine.

I have several like that. I think it may be a feature of the Infolithium's when they get to a certain age. Now I try to change any of the Infolithium batteries if the time remaining indicator approaches 60 minutes.

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

steve
Offline
Joined: Apr 8 1999

Tom,

This may be a long shot but how did you charge the 760 before you used it? The reason I'm asking is that when I first got my FX1, I also bought a new 960. A couple of times, I used this on the old TRV900 when it's own 750 ran down. Similarly, I used the 750 on the FX1. What I found that the 'indicated time left' depended on what it was last charged and used on as well as what it was currently fitted to. (I know that the NX5 is charged externally). It seems that the infolithium chip adjusts to the consumption of the devices it has been used on.
Maybe the LED lamps confused the chip. If you had charged it and run it down on the NX5, before a critical job it may have 'recalibrated' the infolithium chip.

Just a thought.

Steve

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Quite right. Sony's Infolithium software measures the discharge rate and assumes that this will be the same next time after a recharge. So, if you change the usage, the readings will be wrong until the battery's been recharged on the new camera a couple of times.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.

Mark M
Offline
Joined: Nov 17 1999

I'm not sure I understand that, Alan. Recent Sony cameras like the Z5/7 don't let you charge the batteries on-camera, you have to use the supplied charger. Or what if you're shooting on, say, a PD170 but charging your batteries with a stand-alone charger like the AVC-700? How does the camera calculate battery life then? Or is there a typo in your post above? Do you mean if you change the usage, the readings will be wrong until the battery's been discharged on the new camera a couple of times?

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

Alan Roberts
Alan Roberts's picture
Offline
Joined: May 3 1999

Sorry, yes, that's right. the battery needs to have experienced the typical load once before it can calculate the expected lifetime next time. Some Sony cameras incorporate the charger into the camera (e.g. A1, HC1 and a few others), then there's no problem.

Get my test cards document, and cards for 625, 525, 720 and 1080. Thanks to Gavin Gration for hosting them.
Camera settings documents are held by Daniel Browning and at the EBU
My book, 'Circles of Confusion' is available here.
Also EBU Tech.3335 tells how to test cameras, and R.118 tells how to use the results.