November 15, 2013 - 23:05
I'm afraid a young couple have contacted me as a 'so-called' professional videographer has taken a £1000 fee in advance from them then: - turned up 2 hours late - so missed key elements of the occasion - failed to provide a minimal standard of quality in DVD and photographs provided - the bride was in tears when she saw the final DVD. I am trying to piece together the footage and photographs to create a DVD they might be less unhappy with. (new paragraph) When I try to play back the MiniDV tapes I get the message "HDV recorded tape. Cannot playback" Can anyone out there do something to save the day for this couple (new paragraph) Can anyone advise how they should go about getting their money back - he refuses to refund anything. (new paragraph) I am in shock at the poor quality of work and the manner in which this man has conducted himself at the expense of a rather naïve young couple. Contacting 'Watchdog' springs to mind / small claims court perhaps? Norman
November 15, 2013 - 23:14
#1
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Just to be clear on your post - £1,000 - this appears to be the cost for both video and photos? Not an extortionate ammount for both, but still too much if it is a load of rubbish.
I had a very similar experience which was discussed in great detail here http://www.dvforums.com/forums/will-brides-ever-learn - I'm sure you'll glean a better insight into the clean up and outcome if you give it a read.
November 15, 2013 - 23:32
#2
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
I remember branny's footage well, it was probably the worst I've seen, shot on JVC HD which I converted for branny who did an amazing job rescuing it. You'll need to get the HD converted as it sounds like you're only able to handle DV, I'd then look at producing something more like an extended highlights DVD if so much footage is actually missing, maybe using some of the audio or wedding type music under the photos with pans and movement on the photos. As for the couples recourse, it's really their call - Small Claims is not expensive and they'll get the chance to show what the 'cowboy' produced, mostly it's not like court in any way, more an informal discussion around a table, Watchdog is only really of use if a lot more people have complaints about a specific individual. The Daily Mail also like this kind of story..... I wish you luck, let us know how it goes!
November 15, 2013 - 23:51
#3
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Thanks chaps. I've had a read through the thread - seem to remember reading it at the time. Yes, that's the sort of treatment I was thinking to try. Just feel very sorry for the couple so would like to do something for them. However, yes, I use SD cards and hard drive so I guess I'm looking for someone to convert the footage. I'm based near Chorley in Lancashire - just round the corner from where Graham Fenton used to live. The couple are trying to collect photos / videos from their guests. I would be happy to hand task over to someone who would like to convert and complete the project if they wished.
November 16, 2013 - 19:55
#4
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Firstlyhave the couple anything in writing from cash payment etc, that he would do the job?. Over the years I have done a few fix it wedding video"s. I could help but it would be a waiting in the line job.
Why dont the couple start the ball rolling by going to the local newspaper and post the work on YouTube or Vimeo or if he has Facebook put it on there.
Every couple should check first who they hire. O.K. saying that after the event.
From what you say a lot was missing?. What would you think actually need doing?
November 16, 2013 - 23:30
#5
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
I've got a couple of Z1's if you need the footage exported and converted.
Not close to you though so would need to be couriered to be safe, I'm in Essex.
Could also re-edit if required.
Drop me a pm if you can't find a solution closer to home.
November 17, 2013 - 15:55
#6
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
I believe they have a contract which is quite specific. I believe the person has not fulfilled the contract in several key ways. I have advised the couple to engage a solicitor or contact Citizens Advice or begin the procedure for a Small Claim. Apparently he has already refused to return any of their money. The couple now realise that they were naive and / or foolish and should have done their 'homework' more thoroughly.
What is missing relates to him arriving at the Bride's home two hours later than agreed. (The arrival time was confirmed with the Groom by telephone on the previous Wednesday) So several 'scenes' were shot after the wedding in the wrong location.
What he and his wife have filmed ( apparently he would hand the camcorder to his wife with some brief verbal instructions while he took photographs) is less than competent in terms of framing and composition to the extent that it may be difficult to 'save' much.
Since my first post I have been given DVD's with all his 'unedited work' on - that phrase can be taken lightly - and it has imported to Premiere. I'll try using slow mo and stills combined with guests' photos to see what can be done
I have done similar 'saves' over the years but nothing with the basic material being so poor.
Thanks for offers of help but with the material now on the timeline I'll see what I can do and report back.
November 17, 2013 - 17:38
#7
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Aaaah the plot becomes a little clearer now.
Reading your Initial post I presumed that he was 2 hours late for the ceremony, now it's 2 hours later at the bride's house. Missing shots at the bride's house isn't to my mind 'missing key elements of the occasion', though if this was an Asian wedding it has more significance than an English one. It's also obvious they provided stills as well as video. His 'unedited work' will look just that, unedited, full of misshots, which when removed should leave the key scenes intact.
Was this wedding filmed on one camera? Did the contract state 1 cam? - Just how long were they filming for? Did he provide a finished DVD?
I'm not trying to justify any poor workmanship, but getting both stills and video for £1,000, I feel someone should have read the contract a lot more clearly 'before' the wedding.
You really can't expect high quality video & stills for £1k
November 17, 2013 - 18:08
#8
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Yep, got to agree with Branny (how are you by the way),
Bridal preps is hardly key shots, many of the weddings I do don't even want preps included.
As said, it's easy to slate someones work looking at raw footage, probably everyone on here could get the same treatment, I know I could.
Having knowledge of only one side of the coin, it's a bit difficult for anyone to form an opinion, they may have just paid for recording and hand over the files for instance.
Is this someone you know or, did they contact you out of the blue?
November 18, 2013 - 12:45
#9
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
branny wrote:
Aaaah the plot becomes a little clearer now.Reading your Initial post I presumed that he was 2 hours late for the ceremony, now it's 2 hours later at the bride's house. Missing shots at the bride's house isn't to my mind 'missing key elements of the occasion', though if this was an Asian wedding it has more significance than an English one. It's also obvious they provided stills as well as video. His 'unedited work' will look just that, unedited, full of misshots, which when removed should leave the key scenes intact.Was this wedding filmed on one camera? Did the contract state 1 cam? - Just how long were they filming for? Did he provide a finished DVD?I'm not trying to justify any poor workmanship, but getting both stills and video for £1,000, I feel someone should have read the contract a lot more clearly 'before' the wedding.You really can't expect high quality video & stills for £1k
Mmmmmmmmm....
No perhaps you can't expect "high" quality but I assure you we are dealing with extraordinarily poor quality as I thought I had made clear.
He was contracted to video the bride at home - if you don't consider the bride being with her family at home prior to marriage part of the occasion then my view of the occasion is different from yours.
To be clear r.e. your mentioning of unedited work - the couple have given me the completed DVD in presentation case. I have been filming weddings since 1982 and have never seen anything so poor produced by a 'professional' I only use the term 'professional' in that he was paid for his work. I am going to try using the 'unedited work' to save the day - though having looked through it fully now it is a desperate situation.
I can guarantee if you watched the completed piece of work you would be shocked.
I repeat - the couple realise they were naïve in trusting someone with a web site to meet his contracted obligation.
Despite contract - there are
* no shots of bride / family at home
* establishing shot of venue is close up of sign with one third of the sign not visible
* shot of groom arriving filmed after ceremony with fast zoom in then out incurring feeling of vertigo
* camera movement in most shots is disorientating
* 'guests arrival' filmed after ceremony but was in fact guests walking to lawn for photographs with drinks in hand - clearly after ceremony
* no recording of 'photo session' on lawn - video now seen in unedited DVD is extremely poor
* we then see various poor shots of guests - clearly after ceremony
* we then jump to "Who gives this woman?" - no shot of bride coming down aisle or any other "key elements of the wedding occasion up to this point"
* couple think camcorder was on a tripod for remainder of ceremony but movement gives impression of being on a ship in stormy weather
* super fast zoom in to ring then out is next shock - I'll se what I can do with slow mo and/or still
* guests walking out at end of ceremony filmed from knee height with shots of chests and often out of focus
* next shot is mix to toasts at end of meal
* evening reception has no establishing shot - there is never an establishing shot to let the viewer see the venue
* one shot of evening involves fast zoom in / super fast zoom out / fast zoom in
* couples' first dance filmed in big close up or medium close up - no full length shot
* contract stated two camera shoot - two cameras only used for speeches / toasts
There is no question the 'company' that produced this should have apologised and given the money back.
Incidentally.... I have glanced at the photographs including the presentation album and I know some children would have done better.
I'll check with couple how much they paid - they were so distraught when I met them (think they must have got me from web site) that a lot of what they said is a blur as I was so shocked.
I suspect it was £1000 for video with extra for photographs - I think album alone was £400. As I say I'll check on that.
Again...... whatever was paid it should be refunded in full.
"Poor workmanship" does not begin to encompass this situation
November 18, 2013 - 13:01
#10
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Mmmmmmm....
Full answer to Branny already given.
Again I guarantee if you saw the 'completed' DVD you would be shocked
Albeit that many couples do not ask for the 'Bride at Home' - I assume if you were contracted to record that part of the day you would assume some sort of responsibility to do so.
For this Bride's parents as for many others, the video of her at home with family for the last time before marriage is "key shots" perhaps more cherished than many others.
As you may now realise I am not "slating raw footage" but the final presentation DVD.
For interest's sake when I began in 1982 it was normal to edit 'in camera' as post editing was 'tape to tape' and was a laborious process with mistakes incurring a severe time penalty.
That discipline and "craftsmanship" meant I would happily let you view my old Betamax "raw footage" without fear that it would be slated.
Again I suspect you would take a different view if you saw the DVD.
It is a real horror story but unfortunately it is real life.
I feel a morale responsibility to help this couple and a professional fear that cowboys such as this can so easily damage the image of the "video man" that I and so many colleagues have tried to establish over the years.
So strange that the public still refer to the "video man"
Just to confirm - I did not previously know the couple. I had just driven back from a day trip to Coventry to meet an Australian relative when I found an answerphone message late on Saturday afternoon. The couple were so upset they came to the house that evening and I felt honour bound to help them out
November 18, 2013 - 13:05
#11
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Sorry to say I don't agreee that the bride at home is essential to any wedding DVD. Desirable and a lovely addition yes, but like Pete, only around 50% of our clients want this type of coverage.
I understand in Asian wedding coverage, that it is more significant and essential.
I also understand that wedding coverage, if it is for an Asian wedding, can span quite a few days and that is the reason I asked how many hours coverage were provided?
This doen't excuse poor workmanship but it will give an indication of the hourly rate.
Thanks for taking the time to list these extreme faults. From what you say It sounds horrendous and it's quite right that anyone providing such poor quality, wether they provide a full refund or not, should be exposed to the full scrutiny of the media.
On behalf of your clients, contact your local newspaper and the Daily Mail/Express, who tends to run with this type of story. The more that amateurs like this get exposed for what they are the better it will be for true professionals.
November 18, 2013 - 13:33
#12
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
branny wrote:
Sorry to say I don't agreee that the bride at home is essential to any wedding DVD. Desirable and a lovely addition yes, but like Pete, only around 50% of our clients want this type of coverage.I understand in Asian wedding coverage, that it is more significant and essential.I also understand that wedding coverage, if it is for an Asian wedding, can span quite a few days and that is the reason I asked how many hours coverage were provided?This doen't excuse poor workmanship but it will give an indication of the hourly rate.Thanks for taking the time to list these extreme faults. From what you say It sounds horrendous and it's quite right that anyone providing such poor quality, wether they provide a full refund or not, should be exposed to the full scrutiny of the media.On behalf of your clients, contact your local newspaper and the Daily Mail/Express, who tends to run with this type of story. The more that amateurs like this get exposed for what they are the better it will be for true professionals.
I don't recall stating that "the bride at home is essential to any wedding DVD" Indeed I have never said or thought that.
The key point here and at all times is that if a family think it is essential... then ask to have it recorded... then have it written into a contract....then ring to check with the 'videoman' or 'videographer' or 'cowboy' that he will be at the house at the agreed time..... THEN IT BEHOVES THE SAID COWBOY TO RECORD IT!!!!!!!
I have never in 31 years of professionally recording wedding videos thought to tell a family what I considered was essential. I have been known to make professional recommendations backed up by 'high quality' demonstration videos - once upon a time on tape, then on DVD and now on the internet or via pen drive / ipad etc.
I won't be contacting any aspects of the media as, as already stated, I feel that is something for the family to do, perhaps after advice from a solicitor. I guess you can see how easily one e.g. yourself and Pete or perhaps the newspapers can get drawn into a defensive stance on behalf of the perpetrator without being able to see the actual video. For the 'cowboy' to get a fair hearing the newspaper would have to be able to view the video and let their readers view it.
My position is simply to restore some peace of mind to this couple
November 18, 2013 - 13:48
#13
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
I quite agree that if it states in the contract bride's coverage then that should be covered. According to your earlier post they did arrive, albeit 2 hours later than arranged.
Do you know yet just how many days coverage were involved?
December 2, 2013 - 20:18
#14
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Any update to this Najd?
December 3, 2013 - 01:20
#15
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
branny wrote:
Just to be clear on your post - £1,000 - this appears to be the cost for both video and photos? Not an extortionate ammount for both, but still too much if it is a load of rubbish.
Two expressions spring to mind "Pay peanuts and you get monkeys" and "If something seems too good to be true, chances are it probably is". I feel very sorry for the couple concerned, and hear what's being said re contract, but at that cost (for photos and videos) reality alarm bells should have been ringing.
December 3, 2013 - 03:07
#16
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Purely out of interest. What would be the typical or average charge for reasonable video and stills coverage of a British wedding? Are stills and video both done by the same operator or would it be more normal to engage two different operators/companies?
Just a query to help me follow the thread more informed.
Gordon
December 3, 2013 - 10:53
#17
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
infocus2 wrote:
branny wrote:
Just to be clear on your post - £1,000 - this appears to be the cost for both video and photos? Not an extortionate ammount for both, but still too much if it is a load of rubbish.Two expressions spring to mind "Pay peanuts and you get monkeys" and "If something seems too good to be true, chances are it probably is". I feel very sorry for the couple concerned, and hear what's being said re contract, but at that cost (for photos and videos) reality alarm bells should have been ringing.
Your quote r.e. peanuts is at best rather simplistic.
I thought I had given an indication as to the poor level of performance in executing this video recording.
There is no question that a secondary schoolchild after a brief introductory course could have done much better.
I have seen videos produced FREE OF CHARGE for charities which are many times more competent than this.
IN THIS CASE COST IS IRRELEVANT!!!!!! The level of basic human competency is so poor .................
December 3, 2013 - 10:56
#18
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
Arthur.S wrote:
Any update to this Najd?
I'm afraid I had to give up. I had hoped that through the use of stills / slow mo I might be able to do something.
It was hopeless.
I have given the material back to the couple (with no charge of course) and recommended they try other media businesses in the area in case something can be done.
December 3, 2013 - 11:00
#19
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
To update: I had to give up.
I have given material back to couple (with no charge of course) and suggested they try other media firms in the area.
December 3, 2013 - 11:09
#20
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
I don't do weddings but don't see how you could do a wedding of average size for less than £1k.
Togs seem to charge roughly the same.
As I said, I don't do them but you're talking at least 2 people on a 12 hour day, maybe three plus post production time
I assume that three is some 'deal" where anything from 1-10 DVDs can be supplied as part of the package.
But a wedding can vary from a simple registry office job and lunch in a pub to an asian extravaganza with cinematic pretensions.
It's too hard to say.
I accept that prices also differ north/south.
A single "operator" can do both, but not a single person.
I quite often do corporate gigs under a banner of a company. That co will take on any job and subcontract to get lighting, staging, video or anything.
December 3, 2013 - 11:27
#21
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
A shame you had to admit defeat on this one, which, for an experienced operator, is a sign that poor quality = truly awful!
I'm afraid that this scenario also indicates how the quality of wedding photography/video has plummeted during the recession.
Up to a few years ago many wedding clients recognised that high quality came at a high cost, but many are now under the illusion that they can pick the lowest prices and still get the top quality = never going to happen.
I know from experience that there are many photo/video operators out there round the £500 mark who are capable of producing an ok job, they'll never win awards, but they do an adequate job.
This particular example, based on your information, appears to fall into the 'total cowboy trying to make a quick buck' who between them couldn't recognise what a total hash they were making of it and have no-one to blame but themselves if they get sued.
December 3, 2013 - 13:55
#22
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
branny wrote:
I'm afraid that this scenario also indicates how the quality of wedding photography/video has plummeted during the recession.Up to a few years ago many wedding clients recognised that high quality came at a high cost, but many are now under the illusion that they can pick the lowest prices and still get the top quality = never going to happen.
and if anyone doubts Branny they should have a look at their local 'Sell and Seek' section on Facebook - every man and his dog is now a 'wedding photographer' :(
robo
December 3, 2013 - 14:50
#23
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
infocus2 wrote:
branny wrote:
Just to be clear on your post - £1,000 - this appears to be the cost for both video and photos? Not an extortionate amount for both, but still too much if it is a load of rubbish.Two expressions spring to mind "Pay peanuts and you get monkeys" and "If something seems too good to be true, chances are it probably is". I feel very sorry for the couple concerned, and hear what's being said re contract, but at that cost (for photos and videos) reality alarm bells should have been ringing.
But alarm bells may not ring for the couple who have absolutely no idea of what these things should cost.
It may ring for you, as a professional, but the couple may have thought that £1k was reasonable, or even expensive - one day at £1,000 does not seem cheap to the uninitiated.
December 3, 2013 - 15:58
#24
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
John Willett wrote:
But alarm bells may not ring for the couple who have absolutely no idea of what these things should cost.It may ring for you, as a professional, but the couple may have thought that £1k was reasonable, or even expensive - one day at £1,000 does not seem cheap to the uninitiated.
I feel you undrestimate today's brides and grooms John. Check out any wedding forum, or facebook page and for years prior to the big day they discuss every minute detail of their forthcoming nuptials and their quest to get better value than their contemporaries.
In my day, friends were asked for recommendations, today they ask the whole world, then thinking they know better, ignore them and ... common sense!
I have personal experience of a few couples who found cheaper then bitterly regretted it later. The example above is another.
December 3, 2013 - 18:46
#25
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
branny wrote:
John Willett wrote:
But alarm bells may not ring for the couple who have absolutely no idea of what these things should cost.It may ring for you, as a professional, but the couple may have thought that £1k was reasonable, or even expensive - one day at £1,000 does not seem cheap to the uninitiated.I feel you undrestimate today's brides and grooms John. Check out any wedding forum, or facebook page and for years prior to the big day they discuss every minute detail of their forthcoming nuptials and their quest to get better value than their contemporaries.In my day, friends were asked for recommendations, today they ask the whole world, then thinking they know better, ignore them and ... common sense!I have personal experience of a few couples who found cheaper then bitterly regretted it later. The example above is another.
I'm afraid I have to contradict you, as the couple concerned did not "find cheaper" then hire them - they found a web site, went to visit the chap & watch his 'demo', felt happy with it and booked him (paying cash in advance) in order to "have it sorted"
The bride & groom were very much as John describes (certainly somewhat naïve & trusting) but I suspect, pressed for time to visit other videographers when they thought they had someone capable.
Incidentally I have known weddings where one set of parents have booked the 'video' as the couple can either not afford it or do not want it.(*) (Not all brides are gorgeous ) These parents are not 'au fait' with Facebook.
(*) The occasion only recently came to mind about 20 or so years ago, having sat with all the Bride's family watching our 'demo tape' and agreeing the finer details of their video, when as I filmed the Groom walking towards the church I heard him stating that he did not want to be on the video.
It was only after some pleading from the Bride's mother that I went ahead.
One day I'll have to write a book.
Happily the vast majority of the hundreds (thousands??) of weddings I have filmed have been absolutely problem free and a joy to be involved in - only partially due to my 'due diligence' in the many aspects of preparation.
Happily the vast majority of the hundreds (thousands??) of weddings I have filmed have been absolutely problem free and a joy to be involved in - only partially due to my 'due diligence' in the many aspects of preparation.
More seriously regarding the above, I suppose the ideal would be for each family to hire a wedding organiser such as Steve Martin did in the film 'Father of the Bride.'
December 4, 2013 - 00:10
#26
Re: Couple's wedding needs saving from 'cowboy'
John Willett wrote:
But alarm bells may not ring for the couple who have absolutely no idea of what these things should cost.It may ring for you, as a professional, but the couple may have thought that £1k was reasonable, or even expensive - one day at £1,000 does not seem cheap to the uninitiated.
I don't have any professional connection with wedding filming, and as yet none of my children have got to that stage yet! But I'm aware of wedding fayres via somewhere I volunteer at, and some friends got married last year. The clear impression I get is that most couples seem to either do things as cheaply and simply as possible, or spend a huge amount of time and effort choosing everything, down to minute details.
Consequently, even if a couple have no idea what ANYTHING connected with the wedding should cost when they begin their preparations, then in most cases, after a couple of wedding fayres and online research they're likely to get an idea of going rates pretty quickly. £1,000 isn't necessarily cheap or expensive - it depends what is promised for the money. From what I hear, for what was promised, it's likely to be far less than would have normally been expected. That's why I said that "alarm bells should have been ringing".
All that said, then OK, it's easy to be wise after the event and don't for one moment think I'm saying "tough, you brought it on yourself". As far as they were concerned, they contracted for a service (whatever the price) and it wasn't delivered. As such, they need to think about legal action if the paperwork is strong enough.
And unfortunately, then anyone with a camera can just advertise their services and hope for the best in a way that such as regulated professions (electricians, plumbers, builders etc) can't really do. Some of those may be better than others, but in general (and cowboys excepted) they do have to have shown that they meet a minimum standard. This case does seem especially bad though.