Happy enough with DVDs?

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RayL
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Joined: Mar 31 1999
It's very quiet on the DV Forums these days. For those who have joined recently and don't know the background, this site grew out of Computer Video magazine (May/June 1997 - Feb 2005).
 
At the beginning, editing video with a computer was barely possible, owing to limited CPU power, limited RAM size, limited hard disk capacity and limited software capability. Under the editorship of Bob Crabtree, the magazine pursued a review policy almost unknown in magazines with paid-for advertising - honesty.
 
As computer editing made progress by laps and bounds, there was a very big interest in the 'events' side of things, particularly weddings. When burnable DVDs became feasible in 2001 we were at last able to maintain the quality of our digital cameras through to the customer's TV screen.
 
I haven't done weddings for several years now, but in the other 'events' work that I do, people seem happy enough with DVDs. HD cameras down-converted to SD make better pictures than SD cameras did (OK, with a few SD camera exceptions) so DVDs look better. For shows and concerts there is no clamour for Blu-ray.
 
DVDs, like CDs, seem to be 'good enough' for the people who want a physical product. Great as far as I'm concerned - the chase after new gear and software has slowed right down.
 
What is the experience of other editors?
 
Ray
 
branny
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Joined: Nov 6 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Hi Ray - I agree with all your observations. It was a brave . .  and very exciting world we entered at the start of computer video editing. Being one of the early adopters of 'Video Machine'  a very expensive video card (£5k) and 3 expensive SVHS decks (£900 each) I dipped my toe into the unheard of world of 'realtime, frame accurate' editing.
 
It was a huge learning curve and I burnt the midnight oil for months grappling with the complexities of cabling and settings until I had it mastered.
The investment paid off as we were quantum leaps ahead of the opposition.
Once technology caught up and Bob's computer magazine was released the floodgates opened and the push for cleverer, quicker and cheaper hardware and software knew no bounds, Bob's honest advice and his integrity was unmatched and he alone helped create the feeding frenzy that was computer video editing. We couldn't get enough information in those days and the holy grail of info was definitely bob's mag.
 
Nowadys of course we seemed to have reached the pinnacle of video editing. Every format, every output, every effect and treatment is available for a few pounds and the ability to injest and operate is mostly common knowledge. What hasn't evolved as fast though is the ability to film well.
This ability has been oversimplified mainly thanks to MTV, but of late good lighting and filming seems to be coming to the fore again.
 
I feel much like the men who first flew aeroplanes must have felt, harking back to the days when it was all seat of the pants stuff rather than computers doing the hard calculations for you nowadays, but my thanks still remain with Bob Crabtree, the pioneer of all things Computer Video.
A huge thanks from me to the man who helped market this giant of a pleasure machine from the ground up. :) 

Do not follow, I may not lead. Do not lead . . . I may not follow.

infocus2
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Joined: Mar 2 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Depends totally on who it's for and I'd say very difficult to generalise. Come to that I've heard a lot depends on marketing, even in the wedding etc market. If nothing gets said, a couple may be quite happy with a DVD, if a Blu-Ray is actively promoted ("for £x extra you can have your special day in High definition! That's worth it isn't it?") it may make all the difference. And go to the broadcast market and Standard Definition is pretty much dead nowadays.
Gavin Gration
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Joined: Jul 29 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Blu-ray has been pretty much surpassed or bypassed from all angles.
 
Upscaled DVDs - look fine especially of they are cheaper.
 
HD content works online & online is now on your TV.
 
The vast majority HD PVRs don't have recordable disc drives.....and people don't care because they have YouTube/Netflix etc instead.
 
Discs cost money to make and distribute - much easier to sell rental or subscription access than physical stock.
 
There's every chance that HD will inhibit 4K just as DVD as damaged Blu-ray. I'll have a 4K camera - if only to do "trick multicam HD" at conferences etc. 
infocus2
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Joined: Mar 2 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Gavin Gration wrote:
HD content works online & online is now on your TV.

If it was my wedding, then what I would want is something I could put in a drawer and forget about for years - but have a good expectation that if I wanted to, I could view it at any time then if I wished. Nothing can ever be called totally secure - but I would not be remotely confident that I could guarantee to see anything stored online years into the future. By then, yes, you may have to hunt around for a Blu-Ray player - but it should be possible to find one somewhere. For something like a wedding I'd recommend the lot as belt and braces - Blu-Ray, DVD, AND online.

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I have never been asked to produce a Bluray version of anything! I`ve only ever done one & that was of our China trip last year but the difference in quality amazed me. Shot on a Sony HXR-NX30e, the low light footage of the Shanghai waterfron at night was especially good. The DVD version needed 2 discs wheras the Bluray was on one, so two bonus points there, quality & capacity, but I think that Bluray has missed the boat, technology has all but past it by.

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

tom hardwick
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Joined: Apr 8 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
When I slob out I sit pretty close to a 55'' LCD, so Blu-ray is the format for me.  However well the upscaling does its stuff, you can't get away from the fact that the BD (at about 25% dearer than the DVD) trounces the DVD with disdain.  If I want to keep a film in my collection I'm beginning to think I'll have to get them quick as I can see BD going the way of MiniDisc.
rogs
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
tom hardwick wrote:
 as I can see BD going the way of MiniDisc.
 
That statement, I think, almost certainly defines the reality of what will happen.... at least with 'burnt' Blu-ray discs.
 
I was one who came to hobby video relatively late on ( compared to the observations on 'early' video editing made here)..
My DV camcorder footage was simple enough to edit on my P4 CPU, and the stories of earlier struggles with 'overnight renders' and 'nightmare memory issues' didn't register with my own experience.
Making DVDs of my footage for family and friends was simple, and cheap, enough (as I say -not too early on!)...although the strict 'authoring' requirements of making an externally 'playable' DVD were a bit of a pain at first.
 
Then I bought an HD camcorder..... bit of a struggle at first, CPU wise, but using an intermediate interframe  format soon made it seem like 'DV' editing days again!
 
But how to archive and distribute my final HD edits?........ not another disc format, please... especially one that is fussy about authoring, and has paranoid obsessions about licences......
 
Not necessary?... oh good!.......HDD or USB stick storage... solid state hardware video players.....various high quality HD  video formats and codecs...many free... sounds good to me!
 
I can see that commercially pressed Blu-rays might last a while longer for Hollywood 'blockbuster' film sales... but for future 'home' HD video storage and replay?... the burnt versions are not going to make it, IMHO.
 
What is in doubt is exactly where the 'wedding' business will end up.  DVDs for a while, obviously, but I can see those who ask for a 'high definition' version being offered a 'solid state' option, that can be played via the external hardware player, or the SD slot in the TV.  No discs involved. 
 
If you haven't yet invested in a Blu-ray burner... don't bother - -'burnt' Blu-rays are never going to match the mainstream inroads made by 'burnt' DVDs......too much 'solid state' competition.
 
All IMHO of course!....smiley
 
 
 
 
infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
rogs wrote:
What is in doubt is exactly where the 'wedding' business will end up.  DVDs for a while, obviously, but I can see those who ask for a 'high definition' version being offered a 'solid state' option, that can be played via the external hardware player, or the SD slot in the TV.  No discs involved. 
 
If you haven't yet invested in a Blu-ray burner... don't bother - -'burnt' Blu-rays are never going to match the mainstream inroads made by 'burnt' DVDs......too much 'solid state' competition.
 
All IMHO of course!....smiley

I think what you have to ask is what is the lifespan of solid state media - and here we're talking about how long it will realistically retain it's data if just put into a drawer. Unfortunately, for long term storage, it's not all that good. Difficult to give an exact figure but "about 5 years" is probably a decent estimate for guaranteed retention. (I believe it's all to do with a phenomenon called quantum tunnelling, whereby the charge leaks away from the cells over a long period of time.)  

 
Significance is that for something like a wedding video, the "solid state option" becomes very unattractive. Surely for something like that you really want something which will last much longer? And currently, it's difficult to beat optical disc, be it DVD or Blu-Ray, for likely lifespan. Add to that the cost of a blank disc being far less than solid state storage, and if Standard Definition isn't good enough, I can't see why you would want anything other than Blu-Ray at the moment? 
 
Will it "go the way of mini-disc"? Well, nothing lasts forever, but my guess would be it's still got quite a good life span ahead. Helped by it's backwards compatibility with DVDs and CDs - get a Blu-Ray and it still plays your existing collections. Expect Blu-Ray drives to drop in price to the point where you just can't get a DVD only player. If I was commissioning a wedding video, I'd want the end product to be on Blu-Ray if I wanted HD, DVD if SD was good enough
.
As for the home film market, then I believe a substantial number of Blu-Ray or DVDs are bought as presents. Somehow, unwrapping a download at Xmas may be a lot less satisfactory than a boxed disc......  smileyThat said, then yes, I'm sure the percentage of downloads can only increase at the expense of discs, especially for the current rental market. But take over completely? I think that's a very long way away.
H and M Video
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Joined: Jun 5 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
infocus2 wrote:

If it was my wedding, then what I would want is something I could put in a drawer and forget about for years - but have a good expectation that if I wanted to, I could view it at any time then if I wished.

 
Are we talking about the DVD or the Bride here? laugh
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

rogs
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Joined: Jun 16 2006
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
H and M Video wrote:
Are we talking about the DVD or the Bride here? laugh
 
 
Hopefully, when you take the DVD out of the drawer, many years hence, it will not show any signs of ageing.......
 
rogs
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
infocus2 wrote:
 And currently, it's difficult to beat optical disc, be it DVD or Blu-Ray, for likely lifespan. 
 
That hasn't been my experience... at least not with 'burnt' DVDs.  
Whilst I've never had a failure with pressed DVDs, I have certainly encountered several examples of corrupted burnt DVDs. Especially with my earlier ones (those more than 5 years old).
I don't have any experience at all with Blu-ray, so I can't comment.
 
Regarding 'solid state' storage, I suppose one should also include HDD.. at least for backup. Now that the temporary price hike brought about by the Thailand floods has disappeared, HDD represents a pretty cost effective medium again. (About 10p per GB for larger drives)
And it's certainly pretty simple ( and good practice) to make backup copies of everything. So I'm not sure the longevity of the disc medium has quite the importance it once may have had.
 
And then of course there's 'cloud' storage..... but that's a subject on it's own!
 
I do feel that the variety of video formats available, away from the restrictions of disc 'authoring', together with the many options to store your video data... online --HDD--solid state--- do probably mean that the Blu-ray version of the optical disc format is not going to enjoy anywhere near the success of the DVD format that preceded it.
 
infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
rogs wrote:
Whilst I've never had a failure with pressed DVDs, I have certainly encountered several examples of corrupted burnt DVDs. Especially with my earlier ones (those more than 5 years old).
I don't have any experience at all with Blu-ray, so I can't comment.
That is not the experience of most people. It may have been true in the early days, but nowadays, then unless you buy cheap and unreliable blanks, there shouldn't be a problem. Certainly, once a DVD is burnt and verified, and assuming it's not subjected to extremes of heat etc they seem to last a long time.
rogs wrote:
Regarding 'solid state' storage, I suppose one should also include HDD.. at least for backup. Now that the temporary price hike brought about by the Thailand floods has disappeared, HDD represents a pretty cost effective medium again. (About 10p per GB for larger drives)
But 10p/GB is still a lot compared to media costs for blank DVDs/Blu/Ray! Worse, that figure is only true for fairly large drives - far more than a project such as a wedding video is likely to be. You can't give away a fraction of a drive - and a HDD is going to cost a lot more than an optical disc.....
rogs wrote:
And it's certainly pretty simple ( and good practice) to make backup copies of everything. So I'm not sure the longevity of the disc medium has quite the importance it once may have had.
I don't deny HDDs have their place, but what is fundamental is the difference between what may be called passive and active archiving. Active archiving means that data is constantly being monitored and if media shows sign of failure or being superseded, the data is copied before corruption. "Passive archiving" means putting the item away, possibly not to be looked at for years. It relies on the medium being (a) likely to be playable after time and (b) there being equipment to do so.
 
And the problem with hard drives is that they don't take well to that. Leave a hard drive in a cupboard for a long time, and it's quite likely it won't work when you eventually want it to. For a wedding, that's useless. If the happy couple don't really know the difference between SD and HD, is it really likely they will be backing up and checking hard drives once or twice a year? After the initial interest, I'd say far more likely that whatever medium they're given gets put on a shelf for quite a few years.
rogs wrote:
I do feel that the variety of video formats available, away from the restrictions of disc 'authoring', together with the many options to store your video data... online --HDD--solid state--- do probably mean that the Blu-ray version of the optical disc format is not going to enjoy anywhere near the success of the DVD format that preceded it.
No, Blu-Ray won't enjoy the popularity of DVD, that shouldn't be a surprise as Blu-Ray has competition that wasn't there when DVD reigned supreme. But isn't it a case of horses for courses? Download and solid state/hard drive has much in it's favour for the rental market - but for presents, collections, and where any degree of permanence is important the advantage must go to Blu-Ray.
 

I see co-existence for quite a while to come. For now, if you're giving a client something that they expect to have a longish lifespan, optical disc must be the best option.

RayL
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Joined: Mar 31 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
This is developing into a very interesting discussion.
 
One aspect of DVD/Blu-ray v. solid state/cloud storage that has not been mentioned so far is menus and chapter points. For 'events' work a menu is surely essential. I know one guy who records shows at his local theatre (for cast and reference purposes, not for public sale), but playing his DVDs is rather like playing a VHS - if you want anything other than the beginning it means fast-forwarding. For a 'public sale' disk the public expects (and should get) a menu and chapter points.
 
So its horses for courses. DVDs give people easy ways to jump around the disk - from main movie to extras, from bride's entrance to best man's speech, from overture to closing credits.. By contrast, file storage is for 'playing from the beginning'.
 
Archiving? I can only some offer personal experience.
 
Quarter-inch audio tapes that I recorded in the 1960s still play OK
Philips 1500 domestic video tapes that I recorded in the 1970s still play OK
VHS tapes that I recorded from 1980 onwards still play OK
Video 8 tapes that I recorded in the late 1980s still play OK
Audio CDs that I burnt in about 1993 still play OK
The first DVD that I burnt with menus and chapter points in 2001 still plays OK.
 
For events where I think there will be a continuing interest (and maybe a re-edit) I keep all the original tapes (camera video files on SD card are transferred to Blu-ray). For the rest of the events I keep a copy of the DVD and do a firewire transfer of the complete master edit from the computer to Digital VHS.   D-VHS was a short-lived format (killed off by burnable DVD) but it gives excellent quality (mpeg2 like DVD) and a tape can hold up to 21 hours. Even the restriction of 'use only special D-VHS tapes' can be overcome by drilling suitable holes in the plastic case of S-VHS or even VHS tapes (though dropout is more likely with VHS).
 
Ray
 
 
 
 
 
 
infocus2
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Joined: Mar 2 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Yes, RayL is quite right that menus/chapters etc are a plus point to DVD/Blu-Ray. I don't deny that online (via dropbox etc) or via a memory card is a valuable way of delivering material sometimes, but it's best suited to a straightforward simple clip - play beginning to end. I also find it extremely useful sometimes to hand to clients an SD card with a copy (in fact, a clone) of the days rushes, whilst I keep a copy for myself. (That's one of the main reasons I went with XDCAM over a P2 camera.)
 

But for a finished product, with an expected long lifetime? It's got to be DVD/Blu-Ray at the moment, for all the reasons Ray says, as well as the lifetime aspect. In answer to Rays comment about archival lifetimes, then it's a difficult one to quantify, since some batches of tape (say) have been found to last far longer than others, even 1/4" audio, let alone video - and even in identical storage conditions. And of course, the number of machines to replay 1/4" tape on is slowly declining - with no new being made! That's why I was being careful to try to talk of "guaranteed" lifetimes, even if it becomes a bit meaningless with so many variables. I believe that at the moment, at the top end of the market, LTO data tape is being seen as the preferred long term storage media - though even that is seen to need "active archiving". The files are intended to be "permanent" - the media isn't.

Mark M
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Joined: Nov 17 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Several interesting things in this discussion.

I hate DVDs because my beautiful HD footage which I carefully shoot and grade looks so (relatively) awful down-converted to SD! My clients who view approval copies on Vimeo in 720p - although I've warned them the DVD won't look so good - are still disappointed! Blu-ray really doesn't have a market penetration, and with more and more computers not having an optical disk drive there's a really good question about how we distribute content which we want to be navigable in the same way as a DVD. I think the future for anything interactive is going to be in an HTML5 wrapper: basically a website on a memory stick with links to chapter markers in H264 files. Once upon a time we'd have done this with Flash, but since Mr Steve Jobs banned it, HTML5 seems to be the new future.

As for archive, I've reached a stage in the growth of my business where I think I've outgrown offsite backup on HDDs. For the last three years, since I went tapeless, I've been saving my footage on to two-disk DAS boxes, with the discs in a mirrored RAID, and then making a copy of that on to a single HDD which I take home, and which I take back to the studio for updating with each new shoot.  But in the last 12 months I've shot nearly 10TB of footage, and have seven of these DAS boxes now, so it just doesn't seem sustainable or value for money to keep doing this, especially given the fragility of HDDs, and the occasional scare I get when a HDD dies. And they do die.. So I think I am just about to take the plunge into LT06. And to this end I'd really like a chat to anyone who anyone knows who is using LTO6 tape as video backup and archive. Would like to know the pros and cons, how long it takes to backup, to restore, and that the gotchas are. If anyone can help put me in touch with a mate who has conquered LTO6 I'd be very grateful.

Cheers

Mark

Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC

Adobe Community Professional

infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Mark M wrote:
Blu-ray really doesn't have a market penetration, and with more and more computers not having an optical disk drive there's a really good question about how we distribute content which we want to be navigable in the same way as a DVD. I think the future for anything interactive is going to be in an HTML5 wrapper: basically a website on a memory stick with links to chapter markers in H264 files.

For a here and now situation, I think you're right. But for anything with "future value" to a client (and we're back to wedding videos again, I suppose!smiley), I'd be very sceptical that such an approach is likely to be of much use in some years time. With the data still be on the memory stick, or will some of the cells have leaked charge? Will computer technology have moved on so that the files aren't usable, even if intact? I think that really, to be bulletproof, if I was client I'd want a DVD as likely to be most universal and long lasting, *AND* a Blu-Ray (fairly long lasting, but HD, unlike the DVD, *AND* maybe your approach above for it's here and now merit. Earlier, rogs commented about "the variety of video formats available, away from the restrictions of disc 'authoring'" as a merit for a non-disc situation. I'd argue that for archival purposes the 'restrictions' of disc authoring are a positive plus. It's known exactly what is on the disc format wise and how it should be played - and because it is a defined format means it's far more likely to remain supported into the future.

Mark M wrote:
........... it just doesn't seem sustainable or value for money to keep doing this, especially given the fragility of HDDs, and the occasional scare I get when a HDD dies. And they do die.. So I think I am just about to take the plunge into LT06. And to this end I'd really like a chat to anyone who anyone knows who is using LTO6 tape as video backup and archive.

Well, an IT friend of mine kept much personal stuff on a small RAID - yet even he recently had a failure such that a lot was lost, so yes, don't rely on hard drives for permanence! As for LTO, then I'm only familiar with their use on large scale installations - with dedicated IT support! All I would say is that whilst they're probably as good as it currently gets, and most widely used in the industry for large amounts of data, don't consider them infallible and do plan on two copies of each LTO for security. I also believe a given drive will support the two previous generations of LTO technology (so an LTO6 drive will read LTO5 and LTO4 cassettes - but not LTO3), so every few years it is necessary to copy the files to a newer generation format

It depends on many factors - and not likely to be practical for TB's of data - but it's worth considering XDCAM disc as a long term alternative medium. (With a drive, as opposed to the video player.) May be only practical for finished edits for reasons of size, but it's more robust than basic DVD/Blu-Ray, and is rated to be still playable after a long shelf life.

tom hardwick
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Menus and chapter points are indeed big plusses for discs and I have a lot of fun deciding how many chapters there should be, where they should be on the timeline, how they should be displayed in the menu, how long the menu stays up, what music it has, whether its words and pictures or even if it appears at all.  It's there of course (so that chapter points can be added to the timeline) but I like the fact that I decide if and when the menu page(s) appear at all.
 
But the one thing that infuriates me generally about discs (mainly commercial pressings, but not unheard of in the burn-your-own variety) is the fact that often I have wait ... and wait .. and wait to get through the disclaimers and leaders and whathaveyou to get back to where I left of a couple of nights ago.  That was one plus for tape.  Ejected it knew where you were and knew you were the boss.
 
tom.
Arthur.S
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I'm getting a steady increase in requests for BD since dropping the price for authoring. I've also found in the past that contacting the couple just before the edit, can make a difference. (no budget to think of). I won't go near anything else for HD until, I can include menus, and have some control over copying. And even then I'll still keep backups on BD.
 
Tom, my Pioneer BD player (unlike my last Sony) retains memory of last played position, and gives me the option to play from there if wanted.
DAVE M
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I've just come back from a week's job doing a live mix to projection and webcast, and recording the output to sell DVDs of the event  (2 per day 5 days)
 
 DVD sales are way down compared to previous years as it's less attractive and less fashionable (or "new") than it once was.
 
If it wasn't for the fact that the projection and relay was a chargeable job, the DVD sales wouldn't cover the costs of the job.
 
we got asked for one Bluray -which we don't do.
 
I've never actually calculated how much a DVD costs in production from tape to finished master disc but I'd guess that you need to sell at least 5 to cover the costs involved (and time) of bothering?
this depends on the costs of what the DVD sells for, and if it was a wedding, then it's a product aimed at one customer.
 
Our DVDs are aimed at the attendees of the event buying one 
infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
DAVE M wrote:
...........this depends on the costs of what the DVD sells for, and if it was a wedding, then it's a product aimed at one customer.

For something like a wedding, surely you have to quote on a job basis? Make your profit that way, rather than on any basis of no of DVDs sold? (Or Blu-Ray or whatever.)

DAVE M
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
that was my point.
 
The DVD production for a wedding (never touched the wedding side) is incorporated in the fee for the gig.
 
But the job that I was on was in fact two items. Video relay and also to record it and sell DVDs. Sell 100 and you make money, sell 1 and the work involved is the same, but cannot be reflected in the DVD cost
 
Eventually it will all go over to memory sticks/ downloadable files but the DVD structure is a nice presentation format
infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
OK, this thread is really thinking about home use optical discs, but I did refer to optical discs as still being arguably the best solution for long term archiving, certainly archiving of the "put it on a shelf and forget it a number of years type". Seems there are similar thoughts in the pro world - http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201307/13-0729E/
 
It'll be interesting to see how they compete against LTO tapes. Personal suspicion may be that the top end of the market will stick with LTO, but pro optical discs could become extremely popular with smaller professional users. One advantage they may have over LTO is faster access to individual files
 
Refreshing also to see Sony and Panasonic announcing a common standard, and that fact alone may help it achieve more than either company could achieve alone. We'll just have to hope that after initial introduction, they don't develop the technology along divergent paths........
infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
A bit of searching, and I may not have been quite correct in saying the new proposed discs are only for the pro market and archiving - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23492609 . I suppose it's feasible that Blu-Ray players will just start to come with the newer drives and 4k ability by default? You won't be buying a 300GB device instead of Blu-Ray - Blu-Ray will be 300GB, period. Fine, as long as they maintain the backwards compatibility, the new drives can play Blu-Ray, DVDs, even CDs. Marketing philosophy behind that would be to give momentum to 4k screen sales - something Sony and Panasonic both badly need to do.
Barry Hunter
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Earlier in this thread I said that I`d never been asked for a BluRay version of any production, well that jst changed! This coming saturday we`re recording a dance show using the normal 4 cams & will produce a DVD of the show. I`ve just been asked if I can provide a BluRay version but suspect there will be VERY limited sales for it other than the enquirer. So, what would others do? He`s offered £50.00, should I take it, on the basis that if other sales follow I`ll refund  some of his fee? The retail price of the DVD is £15.00 so any ideas as to what to charge?

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

infocus2
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Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
May depend on your authoring software, but nowadays it's possible to author in something like Encore then choose at the end whether to burn as DVD or Blu-ray. In other words most of the work in producing the Blu-Ray is already done - just a case of selecting that option at the "burn" stage - and obviously having an appropriate drive and media!
H and M Video
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Joined: Jun 5 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Infocus is correct.  I make my HD project in Premiere CS6 and import to Encore.  I then create a Blu-Ray ISO file then a DVD ISO.  Very little extra work involved.  My work is usually for the local school's funds so we only ask the parents for an additional £2.00 to cover the extra cost of the Blu-Ray disc. However I don't think that a charge of £20.00 would be unreasonable as the superb quality of Blu-Ray makes it worth it.
 
Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Thanks guys, that was similar to my own thoughts. I edit in Edius then export as an H264 for BluRay or DV Pal for DVD & then import into Encore for authoring. I would have to make new menus to suit the BluRay.

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

infocus2
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Joined: Mar 2 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Barry Hunter wrote:
Thanks guys, that was similar to my own thoughts. I edit in Edius then export as an H264 for BluRay or DV Pal for DVD & then import into Encore for authoring. I would have to make new menus to suit the BluRay.

Not sure you would need to make two sets of menus - would it not be possible to encode one HD master file from Edius, import that into Encore, build menus etc as a common project then export as both Blu-Ray and DVD - let Encore do the compressing/scaling etc as appropriate to the two media? If you wanted multiple copies of DVD/Blu-Ray, may be worth forming corresponding .iso files so then it's simply a matter of burning the appropriate one to the appropriate media? So - once you've done the filming, editing, authoring, it's very little extra work whether you want Blu-Ray or DVD as the media. (Or both.) Just needs the right media and a Blu-Ray capable burner.

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Thanks for that! In the PC that I edit/author on I have 2 BluRay burners so I can copy the disc as & when.

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

infocus2
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Joined: Mar 2 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I had to go to Homebase today, and took a quick look in Currys as it's next door. From what I could see, then it already doesn't seem possible to just buy a DVD player. Everything I saw on the shelves was a Blu-Ray/DVD combo. Significance of that must be that the penetration of devices able to replay Blu-Ray in peoples homes must be steadily increasing, even if they aren't buying many Blu-Ray discs as such. For this thread, the importance must be in terms of added value sales. Don't just think about who has asked for Blu-Ray - push it actively as a way to increase value, or make yourself stand out from the competition. If a DVD price is (say) £15, then yes, charging £30 (double) for Blu-Ray might not be too attractive. But for something like a wedding, where most of the client cost is fixed for filming, production etc, then an extra £15 is neither here nor there. Or advertise a "premium service" with Blu-Ray and DVD. It's one set of filming, editing and authoring - the extra work is very small, just burning the second copy with the "Build" setting switched to the other format. 
FreeFlow
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Joined: Mar 1 2012
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Other than weddings I am not sure what use there is for physical media these days. I cannot even remember the last time I was asked for something on a disc. Everyone wants web video, or the final file sent via Dropbox or equivalent. With the way modern TV's can take SDXC cards and play high definition video off them as well as USB devices, it would be easy to offer HD versions of weddings etc on such things.
 
So maybe offer a choice of BluRay or card? Not sure I trust the reliability of BluRay due to the finnicky nature of some players.
DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
It depends on your business model and type of work.
 
I used to do loads of work for a major computer company and deliver on VHS, 100's at a time, That would obviously be replaced by a web style video series.
 
 A mate does loads of dance shows at his own risk and makes money by selling the DVD afterwards  but is hit by piracy and unreliable take up 
 
I've made a series of DVDs for sale in a local attraction and video clips would be harder to sell and wouldn't probably suit the target audience.
 
I don't know if there's a "standard" for SD cards in TVs?
 
I like the delivery format and structure of a DVD. OK so we didn't have it in the days of tape and something new may come along but a chaptered disc with maybe 12 sections is a decent presentation. Dunno how you do that with a clip.
 
I'm doing a promo video now that is intended to be online.
 
But there's still a place for discs and the Times at the weekend said that the demise was predicted but that sales were actually up.
 
I think that bluray will be skipped by many as the SD DVD was good enough and when moving to clips, HD makes sense
johnpr98
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Joined: Aug 20 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
Blu Ray sales seem to be on the up!
 
By Mike King | Companiesandmarkets.com – Tue, May 7, 2013 01:00 BST
A surge in online viewing and a rise is sales of physical Blu-Ray discs has helped drive up UK video sales in the first three months of this year.
The British Video Association (BVA) said yesterday that UK spending on video entertainment hit £536.3m in the first three months of the year, up 10.1 per cent on a year earlier.
This came despite a fall in DVD sales, the major driver of spending, with the renewed popularity of high-definition Blu-Ray discs as well as continuing growth in online sales driving spending.
Sales of Blu-Ray discs, which are of superior quality to DVDs, were up 44 per cent to £65.3m and accounted for more than a tenth of turnover for the UK video home entertainment industry.
The popularity of Blu-Ray -- with more than 5m players now sold in the UK -- confounded the doom-mongers who claim physical media are dying fast.
Revenues from physical formats climbed 7.2 per cent to £362.1m as expensive Blu-Ray discs more than offset a decline in DVD sales.
The BVA credited a slew of new releases including the latest instalments in The Twilight Saga and Game of Thrones. The volume of new-release sales was up a quarter on last year. James Bond blockbuster Skyfall, which smashed box office records last year, was by far the biggest selling title of the quarter.
Digital video spending, which includes downloads on iTunes as well as subscription services such as Netflix, was up 55.5 per cent to £116.3m.
 
I only film as a hobby and spend more than I earn, I note that I can buy a Blu Ray recorder for £66.98 and 25 TDK disks for £15.44 Total £82.42
 
I currently use DVD Architect Studio 5.0 and think that once I make my menus I can burn the same project via DVD or Blu Ray, TBC
 
Blu Ray seems to be a good extra HQ backup + sales may overtake DVD's in the near future, why film in HD then down convert  for the DVD's to be upscaled in the end users Blu Ray player LOL
 
Cheers
 

johnpr98
 
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Ron Spicer
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Joined: Jul 22 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
johnpr98 wrote:
Blu Ray sales seem to be on the up! 
 
I see Sony have brought out a Blu-Ray player, presently being sold in Currys for £59.99 which by anybody's reckoning must be a kick up the bum for sales.
 
Ron
johnpr98
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Joined: Aug 20 1999
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I made my first Blu Ray disc yesterday (It took over 8 hours to compile/render!, I must have done something wrong, even though the settings matched my video...I think, more testing required), the quality was excellent but the disc stalled and stuttered in a few places, I made a new copy from yesterdays image with Img Burn this morning and it took 20 minutes, which was a more acceptable time and the new disc played fine.
 
I don't know if I will bother with Blu Ray production yet, the jury is still out + Blu Ray Players upscale DVD's  and definitely improve their playback, I am also well impressed with Samsungs bundled Cyberlink Power DVD 10 after a update, the playback of all the videos on my laptop are well improved from  Power DVD version  7.
 
That's my rambling thoughts finished for now wink

johnpr98
 
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Ron Spicer
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Joined: Jul 22 2001
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
I find it takes about five hour total for the first one, using Toast, but any immediate following ones are far quicker as the original work before burning to disc is held within the system.
NigelP
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Joined: Aug 5 2003
Re: Happy enough with DVDs?
My workflow is Edius 6 to create an edited HD-AVI file, and import to DVD Architect. The same Architect editing file can then be used with different output options of DVD or Blu-Ray - no need for any other changes. So far, no-one has asked for Blu-Ray output of weddings, so it's only use seems to be for my own private filming, where I can see  big differences between the two formats, but this also depends on the subject matter (higher contrast / brighter subjects etc.). Saying that, She who must be obeyed cannot see any difference and wonders if the cost of Blu-Ray is worth it.