Has anyone ever been given a sound desk recording?

9 replies [Last post]
johnd
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Joined: Mar 8 2009

As part of a small filming group I have been involved in filming nine or ten music concerts. At each one we were promised a recording off the sound desk, to date we have never received a beep (literally) off the sound desk.
Has anyone ever received this mythically item ? or do sound engineers just traditionally like to bait videographers to pass the time?
John

Barry Hunter
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Joined: Nov 30 2001

Why not take a feed out of the desk onto i.e. Pro MP3 recorder like an Edirol, then you know you have it as a back up.

I`m in the midst of editing a 4 cam dance show & that`s what I did although the sound I got from my mic that I placed in the middle of the theatre over one of the support beams has given me great sound.

Barry Hunter videos4all.org

Mark M
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Joined: Nov 17 1999

It depends on several things, not least the kit and the professionalism of the operators.
If the desk is set up to be able to record the output to minidisk or CD then I make sure I provide the operator with blank media as necessary, and collect at the interval and at end of the show.
If it's more complex than that, for example if they need to make you a copy, then you have to make a date for collection, then you have to get the contact details of the operators and keep hassling them until you get the recording.

But as Barry says, the best way to ensure you get a recording is to make your own recording from the desk. Forewarn the operators that you'll be wanting a feed. Tell them what kind of output you want (depending on what you'll be recording to). Make sure you arrive well before the doors open so that you can do your own soundcheck. Make sure you listen with headphones as well as watching the levels on your recording device. If you are able to monitor the recording device during the show so much the better.
If using something like the Edirol make sure you record to .wav and NOT to a lossy format like .mp3.

HTH

Mark

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paulears
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Joined: Jul 8 2008

They promised you a copy of a recording they were making? I wonder about this one. I've never been asked for a recording, and unless the artiste wants a recording done, it's not that common to record it. When these recordings are done, at the end of the show they get given to the artiste, and I've never had one back. So for you to get one, they'd have to make two recordings, one for them and one for you, as afterwards they may not actually have the recording to copy for you, and frankly, as soon as you are working on the next show, the old one gets wiped from memory.

Don't forget that video people are almost universally disliked by sound ops. They give you things to do very often near to show time. When I get asked for a sound feed, I ask if they want stereo or mono, and at what level? Sometimes they um and aah. On my kit, I can fairly simply give them a stereo desk output, and I'll usually run a track, and hand them a pair of xlrs. After running the music at show level for 1/4 of an hour, I cut it off and get on with what I should be doing. Often the gormless video bloke then says - can you send me some audio then. He'd not even connected up. What did he think the track was being played for? As far as I'm concerned, that is it. Set and forget. No way I'm going to spend time looking after levels during the show - I'm working. Sometimes, depending on the show, to get the balance right I may have lots or a very little of certain sources. Drums are a common one. If the drummer is really giving it welly, then the snare and overheads might be quite low in the mix. What the video crew are getting is going to sound odd, but again, I can't run a separate mix for them. Like Mark says, if somebody gives me their recorder with media, I'm happy to push record. Some people just want me to do the entire thing for them, not even bringing mic cables or DI boxes of their own. Video people, sad to say, seem to expect sound in a venue to provide them with facilities, often with no notice. I gave one bloke a pair of xlrs, and he said "no, no good - I need mini jacks". That's a problem then, isn't it - I don't have any because none of our equipment uses them. Cue turn around and walk away.

Sounds perhaps a bit harsh, but when I'm doing video, I'm audio prepared. I say please and thank you. I never ask for anything other than an initial level. Often, shows get louder as they progress - I leave enough headroom to cope. There's no way I'm going to turn around and franticly wave at the sound man hoping he'll realise the signal's too hot - he's busy.

johnd
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Joined: Mar 8 2009

I think from reading your replies that I need to be a bit more assertive. We as a group have limited gear but we do have minidisc recorders and the idea of collecting at the interval make good sense too.
We often get told by the band that the sound engineer is making a recording and we leave at that, thinking that asking for a separate recording might look like a lack of faith in the engineer.
But I think I need to approach the engineer as if I'm oblivious to any promise made to the band and make sure we personally get a recording.
John

johnd
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Joined: Mar 8 2009

Thanks for the response Paul,
this is a really good insight, I appreciate this.
John

paulears
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Joined: Jul 8 2008

I suspect that what's happening is a bit of a fob off and genuine forgetfullness. Giving them a record machine and asking them to push record is the kind of request that is difficult to mess up. A little note that says "If possible, please start recording at 30 seconds to a minute before the start" - this also helps them remember when they will be thinking show, not recording. In general, video people appearing isn't the kind of thing the sound people like that much - especially if they're not that good, or worse still, were not expecting to have their work scrutinised.

RayL
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Joined: Mar 31 1999

Picking up from Paul (above), for safety I always start all my own recorders (both cameras and audio). That's the only way that I can be sure that there will be a recording at the end of the show.

My requirements are usually a bit more complex than just 'a feed of the desk output', because the whole edit relies on a balance which will be different from that which comes out of the theatre's loudspeakers. As an example, a recent dance show needed separate feeds of:
Hand mics
Personal mics
Float mics
Music tracks (stereo)
Audience reaction mics (stereo)

That's seven tracks, so I took along one of my 8-track recorders and negotiated with the sound op to take feeds from groups and auxes to get the right feeds (the reaction mics are my own which I rig separately). Negotiations with the sound op started as soon as he had arrived and settled in because, as implied above, sound ops do not like last-minute requests for feeds. Hard-disk space in the 8-track is plentiful, so I'm happy to set it recording quite a long time before curtain-up. Then I can concentrate on the cameras. If the show is being cued from the SM in the prompt corner I try to get a 5 minute call which gives time to set all the gear recording.
Ray L

paulears
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Joined: Jul 8 2008

Ray! I've never had any video people, with the exception of the BBC do audio planning in advance.

The ironic thing is that I've got a 24T Alesis hard drive recorder in my rack next to the mixer, and I could easily record a show, with hardly any bother. The only time in the last year it was offered to a video firm, it was rejected as too much trouble. They stuck an sm58 on a stand, with a Sennheiser plug on TX (on a very dodgy frequency - "To avoid interference") next to the stage.

It's nice to hear from people who want to do it properly - but so few do. In fact, the venue I'm involved with seem to have endless streams of video companies coming in for each dance type show - some travelling hundreds of miles with two cameras (often EX-1 or 3) on one of those hague dual bars, on one tripod at the rear of the stalls with people walking in front of the cameras to go to the loo. I can only imagine what it must look and sound like! However, I keep out of the way and try to keep quiet. I offer every crew a place in the follow spot box - an ideal position - with just the right distance that full wide gives the full stage and a little extra, and they can go really close in, even with a less than narrow lens. It's also got decent sound - being in the 'right' place. However, to get there involves a ladder. It's funny how many seem to have insurance that won't allow them to go up there! Simply too much trouble. I told one guy that there was a nice Vinten head and legs up there from the previous night when we shot the show, and he was free to use it, as his camera weighed about a quarter of the one from the night before - but he set up rear stalls with his Manfrotto 501.

DAVE M
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Joined: May 17 1999

I work in two/three ways - taking an audio kit including multicores with me (not very often now)

more often, I organise a sound feed to a camera from the desk. I provide the XLR feeds and check with the sound guy if the level he's giving me is the gig level or if he's found that he bumps the levels up mid gig. I also monitor it

Sometimes, I'll either get a CD of the gig or better, another guy will record it multi-track and do a bit of post production on it, before sending me the files. I then add this to the video.

If you have audio with post, the mix can include ambience like applause, a straight desk mix needs a camera audio track to get a live feel.

Smaller venues have a problem in that the stage sound is part of the overall sound but most of my gigs are loud and big so no stage sound is relevant and the desk sound rules.

The problems that I've had have been that one gig was recorded for a DVD project, so the audio guy was aware of sample rates etc and still the Pro-Tools audio was 50-60 seconds longer overall than my video. Never found out why but I had to cut it into individual tracks and re-synch as I went along.

Another time I took a sound feed at the Plymouth Pavillions and asked for a post feed, as my mate the previous year had been sent stuff that had been faded down in the mix but was present in the video feed.

The problem was, the auido guy ws doing his own job, so he was punching mics in and out which sounded fine on the PA but meant that applause was being switched on and off. So I had to spend ages fixing up a loop that I could paste in. But it was my fault

The best thing is to talk in advance and butter the audio guy up, explaining the problems that you might have.

I also do it with lampies/lighting guys as they often don't light enough of the stage as the camera can have a problem if someone's staning in a dark spot