Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

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special2015
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Joined: May 28 2015

Hi after a lot of googling the topic of  recording your vhs to the computer through fire wire i really need help whether its possible to do on my Sony camcorders.
i have a  a sony dcr-trv900e 
&
HVR-A1E  (not tried with this one yet) 

I have done this before and it worked with my canon Mv75oi and it worked like a charm but i kept going black and white every few seconds.  sad so i stopped using it, i can't give any clients this type of recording.  Then i bought a capture device canopus advc 55 it is quite good but for some reason it changes the colors and they went dull, when i played the same tape through on the dvd recorder the colours were vibrant and same as the vhs same thing with when i tried the dv pass through on the canon mv75oi and that's what i really liked about it.. it left the colour the same unlike the canopus device i had bought a tbc thing to control the colours on the canopus device but it makes the picture look poorly which is disappointing because its not cheap , i found the quality colour wise better on the dv pass through & my dvd recorder  so i really want to give it another go. I'm done rambling i will come back to my point above. 
 
After using all these capture devices and not great output on the vhs i really want to convert my home videos  to dvd via a dv camcorder pass through has anyone tried it or know if 
it works with sony dcr-trv900e
or
HVR-A1E 

When i look at the sony dcr-trv900e menu in play mode it has 
VTR SET i scrolled down in the options 
nothing about dv came except when you go to 'etc'
it says DV EDITING-Not ready  

I'm not sure it will work so can anyone help me please on how to set my sony camera so i can capture home videos to the computer or a solution to stop the canon camera going b/w

thank you

regards
special2015 

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I don;t think either the TRV 900E or the HVR-AE1 offer the DV 'pass though' mode you're looking for. (The TVR 950E has that capability, but not the TVR900)

I'm surprised you are not getting good results with your Canopus converter. I use the previous model the ADVC50, and get excellent results from that. You might need to check the switch positions, to confirm they are set up for PAL or NTSC  - whichever is appropriate. (Switch setting on page 13 in the manual HERE )

I get my best results by connecting the SCART out from my VHS player into my DVD recorder ( an old Panasonic DMR E55, which includes a form of timebase corrector) and then from the S-video output from that device into my Canopus ADVC50.  Excellent results... and no apparent colour changes....(It is set up for PAL, as required here in the UK)

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Thanks for replying Rogs

 
I connect my  canopus converter with scart out of my VHS Player with a rca wire (3 wires) and the other 3 wires in the converter device itself.  Then open the editor capture software on the pc and there i would see the result it was dull not vibrate. I wish i knew a way to get the exact same colours like you are getting with your canopus. Anyway i can get excellent results?

the dip switch is set on 1 (pal)

 i wanted to ask do i need to connect my vcr and dvd recorder like you have.

I mean the canopus works on its own just connected to the VCR player.

any advice would be great, thanks 

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Well, if the other switches are all 'off' that sounds right.  The switch settings on the earlier ADVC50 model are slightly different, so I can't copy the ADVC55 settings directly.  I haven't noticed any particular loss of colour in my captures.
I have mostly used WinDV as my capture software in the past, but I tend to use Scenalyzer more these days, now that it's freeware!

Of course, with VHS as your source you can't expect miracles - especially when compared to today's HD video!  I've posted a short clip  from an old TV show that I captured with my Canopus device  HERE  (it's only about 30 seconds long - the file is about 10MB) . Not sure the colours should be any more 'vibrant' ?...They'd probably look a bit saturated if they were, I suspect......

With regard to using my old Panasonic DMR 55E DVD recorder between the VHS player and the capture device, I added it simply because that  model (along with one or two others from around that time) included a form of line time base corrector on the input.
So, connecting the Scart to the DVD recorder input, and connecting the Canopus device to the 'S' video out from the DVD recorder can give much more stable results... especially on some of my older tapes. I'm not sure if any other makes of DVD recorder included that feature though?.....

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

hi i viewed  the clip you uploaded many thanks for that and it looks good.  I captured mine today i want to show you 2 samples i made today for your feedback how can i send a video clip?

thanks

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I just noticed watching the clips its not noticeable to the naked eye  but if you compare screen shots then it is

the original colour from dvd player

from canopus, 

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

There have been comments elsewhere on the internet about the Canopus DV converters producing video that is slightly darker than the original.  Your screen shots suggest that. I've not found that to be a problem generally. 
I do find the DV files easy to edit -- and I usually deinterlace, resize and crop the overscan to produce 'cleaner' results from captured VHS tapes. I use the free editor Virtualdub for that task, and that program includes lots of other filters .. including adjustments for brightness, contrast and levels. So it's quite simple to adjust your DV captured files to suit the result you are after .

You can find the latest version of Virtualdub    HERE  

paulears
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I'm a bit confused why you are not using the digital output? Does it not work, or do you not have a way to get this into your computer for editing = as in no firewire 4 pin input?

The usual reason  for the colour snags is the accuracy of the input and output levels and the way the devices manage the luminance and chrominance - I had an analogue input device that was always very od in the colour department, and in my case, colour like - which I sorted out in the editor. Quality is also variable - composite video managing about 240 line at best. So firewire was the connection where colour vanished?

Have you tried the 4 pin Y/C connection? rather than the ordinary composite? 

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please
paulears wrote:
I'm a bit confused why you are not using the digital output?  

I don't think many (if any?) VHS players have a 'digital output'?.....
The OP doesn't mention which VHS machine he is using as the source, and the Scart output he mentions provides either the  composite (or S video if you're really lucky) signal for input to the camera 'pass through' or Canopus DV converter.....

paulears
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

The dcr-trv900e was a small consumer DV camera, wasn't it? had composite and y/c output on the usual phonos and 4 pin, plus the i-link output which was 4 pin firewire? I could be wrong, but it certainly wasn't VHS, and the other one is a more modern HD camera. I just couldn't see why he was using analogue at all?

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I think you may have the wrong end of the stick here......This is about digitising VHS tapes - either by using AV in on a suitably enabled DV camcorder, or by using a Canopus analogue to digital converter.
It's not about capturing camcorder tapes.....

johnpr98
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Paul

The OP is talking about wanting to use a DV camera as a pass through device to transfer VHS from a VCR to his computer.

I have a couple of Digital 8 camcorders that were DV in enabled in 1998/2000 and a couple of mini DV camcorders that were DV in enabled from new

Nowadays any VHS to DVD archiving I do is done with a old Panasonic DMR-85H connected to a VCR, which is more than adequate for the VHS format and more instant

Horses for courses wink

Cheers

johnpr98
 
If you have any Forum Suggestions please post them here

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please
johnpr98 wrote:
Nowadays any VHS to DVD archiving I do is done with a old Panasonic DMR-85H connected to a VCR, which is more than adequate for the VHS format and more instant

I use a similar model - DMR 55E - in the same way, but where I need to edit the original, I find capturing as DV provides a more convenient format than converting Mpeg2 

I also find I use DVDs much less these days -I prefer to convert to mp4 and use either my WD media player.. or the USB slots on my TV and PVR -- to replay the captured analogue footage.

I discovered quite by accident that the Panasonic recorder uses a form of TBC on the input ( it's either a frame synchroniser or a simple line time base correcter -- not been able to discover exactly which).

So, connecting the VCR to the Panasonic DVD recorder, and connecting the S-video output from that to my Canopus comverter can stabilse the captured footage quite a lot in some cases.

Still quicker to capture direct to DVD where the tape doesn't need editing  of course.....

paulears
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Ah - got it at last - sorry!

Both of those cameras in the E version had their video inputs disabled, didn't they. I have a vague recollection of the Sony being able to be tricked into this mode by a combination of the cassette mechanism being left open, and holding down a control when turning it on, but it's a long time ago. Could have been the record button?

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

thanks to all for giving me advice. Anyway i can get my Canopus to give me the original color without editing through vitualdub? 

I have used virtualdub before and i am familiar with editing software i use sony vegas. The purpose of this advc is to give the correct color how can i do that without using post production software?

I just want to say how my connection are my VCR is a SHARP VC-MH815
i have a swithable scart that  i use to connect the vcr and advc with it set on output.. i'm  using normal 3 rca wires that look like this 

and  i have a fire wire which connect from advc to the computer.  Am i doing anything wrong?

H and M Video
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

"Both of those cameras in the E version had their video inputs disabled, didn't they. I have a vague recollection of the Sony being able to be tricked into this mode by a combination of the cassette mechanism being left open, and holding down a control when turning it on, but it's a long time ago. Could have been the record button?"

The disabling of the Firewire input was to do with the tax paid on VCR's at that time. Another example of EU legislation which was intended to protect the EU VCR manufacturers.  Also if the Cam was left on with no tape in then it was programmed to shut down after about 5 Mins. Leaving the cassette door open over solved this problem so that you could, for example, use the cam connected to another recording device.

Harry

PC Specialist 3Gz Dual Core, Premiere CS3, Encore CS3, After Effects CS3, Matrox RT.X2, Panasonic HD HS-300, Z1E & PMW-EX3 Cams.
 
Now with a PC Specialist Quad Core i7-3770, 16GB RAM, 180GB SSD, GeForce GTX560 Ti Graphics Card, Blu-Ray & DVD R/W Burners and can't wait to set it up. Now up and running.  What a difference in Blu-Ray footage.

johnpr98
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Hi Rogs

I sometimes capture analogue to DVD Ram and convert to Mp4 with Handbrake and stream through the network or from the USB connection on my Humax HD box of LG Blu Ray, still a quicker conversion than firewire, although Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12.0 produces far superior results for higher quality footage.

For composite or SVHS connections to go from the VCR to the camcorder and come out through the Firewire connection, you need a DV in enabled camcorder and the correct in/out settings applied.

When I recorded analogue output to DV tape with the Sony camcorders, the remote had to be modified with some extra buttons and pressing them both simultaneously so the Record button could be enabled,
I haven't captured that way for years.

johnpr98
 
If you have any Forum Suggestions please post them here

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please
special2015 wrote:
thanks to all for giving me advice. Anyway i can get my Canopus to give me the original color without editing through vitualdub? 

There are no adjustments on the ADVC55, other than the IRE settings of 0 or 7.5 for NTSC. I don't think they'll make any difference with a PAL signal though... you could try and see...

Unfortunately, it would seem there are a number of possible causes for your dark video.  THIS THREAD from VideoHelp has some quite expert input from different folk, and although it's describing an NTSC situation, much of the advice comes from a UK (PAL) contributor.
 
It's quite long thread, and some of the more informative posts are towards the end. Especially those regarding AGC and sync pulse timings. Once you've read it, I think you'll probably think that correction in the editor might be a simpler option! smiley

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please
johnpr98 wrote:
Hi Rogs

I sometimes capture analogue to DVD Ram and convert to Mp4 with Any Video Converter and stream through the network or from the USB connection on my Humax HD box of LG Blu Ray, still a quicker conversion than firewire, although Sony Movie Studio Platinum 12.0 produces far superior results for higher quality footage.

For composite or SVHS connections to go from the VCR to the camcorder and come out through the Firewire connection, you need a DV in enabled camcorder and the correct in/out settings applied.

When I recorded analogue output to DV tape with the Sony camcorders, the remote had to be modified with some extra buttons and pressing them both simultaneously so the Record button could be enabled,
I haven't captured that way for years.

I used DVD RAM a lot a few years back, and have found (so far!) that  the discs have survived more reliably than DVD-R and much more reliably than DRD-RW..!

 I wondered whether to go Blu-ray - or give up the disc thing altogether.........

In the end I decided not to do the 'disc thing' all over again, and tend to use my WD Media player for most things these days.. It does mean eventually making ISOs of all my DVDs I suppose... but if it takes as long to ditch DVDs as it has to convert all the VHS tapes, it could all take a while yet!.... smiley

I don't 'do' many VHS tapes these days, but my Canopus converter still sits in a bay of my PC, and is easy to connect via S-video to the old DVD recorder, with the VCR connected via Scart to the input of the same DVD recorder.  So it's not as fiddly as 'setting up' a camcorder with pass through.......

Time wise, it's all real time of course... same as DVD capture .... but as I'm not using discs anymore, I find it easier to edit the DV and save as mp4.  File sizes tend to be less than half the size of Mpeg2 DVD files, for about the same quality.

I'm not sure that Blu-ray will now ever achieve the mainstream status of DVD ...  even Sony themselves have stopped making Blu ray drives .....so I suspect that future video capture and storage will be in a whole range of different  formats....

And now it seems we are about to change everything again with the arrival of 4K .......

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Thanks for the link, correcting a video after it's done isn't such a problem but just seems too long and i have many tapes with dance performances different colour from each performance, i don't know if i can spend a lot of time correcting each one. Back to my device advc 55 doesn't give correct colour is it because it has a fault in the device? its been 10yr since i bought it and since the beginning its been this way i didn't really notice untill i bought a dvd recorder and saw the colour comparison,  If i purchase the Canopus: ADVC-110 Converter would that fix my issue, i know its pricey but if i works and i get the correct colour like you do instead of doing post production i don't mind playing for it but if i performs the same way as the 55 then i've got a big problem.

Do you have a external power cable with your unit, i don't i power via firewire because  i didn't get one with my 55, but if i purchase it would it fix the colour? 

Another question i have is regarding my  sony dcr-trv900e  I connected to my vcr i can get a display on the dv screen.. and it says dv in on the display, but once i plug on the fire wire the display goes blue and i can't get any picture on the capture programme..

please advise 

thanks 

rogs
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I would be surprised if your ADVC55 was faulty. As a digital hardware device it's unlikely that kind of problem is caused by a hardware failure.
Much more likely to be one of the reasons in that thread I linked to above.

The ADVC 110 uses the same hardware - it just also includes a reverse D/A facility as well, so it's likely to give you the same results I would think.

Have you actually tried to introduce your DVD recorder into the processing chain?...i.e. VCR to DVD recorder input..... DVD recorder output (S-video is best, if available..) to your ADVC55 input. Might be worth testing that to see if there is any difference. Some DVD recorders include a form of time base correcter, and that might effect  the 'darkness' of the video, as described in that VideoHelp thread I linked to above...

My ADVC50 is an internal unit, so it is powered by the PC PSU and does not use an external supply.  Again, I would doubt that a power supply issue would cause the problem you are describing.

AFAIK, the TRV900 does not have the option to accept an analogue input, as we have already dsicussed above.......

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Hi i haven't ever tried the DVD recorder but i will try and get back to you on my result..  My dvd recorder is LG 

I'm not too familiar with connections so is this right vcr to dvd recorder via scart? and then output of  the yellow wire (i don't have s-video on dvd player)  to the advc55 out i think that's correct. Will give it s go. 

Martechnology
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Converting your VHS analogue footage to a DV data stream for input to a computer suggests that your priority is to use your chosen software to edit the material into a programme, while making any necessary changes to enhance the pictures and/or transitions, and to turn out a professional-looking product with an imaginatively authored menu. If this is your intention I wish you every success.

However, I am not very "software savvy" myself, so may I offer you an alternative suggestion based on some help I gave to an old friend with a project some time ago?

The source material had been recorded on an S-VHS master at a school concert, and the objective was to copy it to DVD with the highest quality achievable and without having to wait for ages for any changes and transitions to be rendered. Both he and I were (are) all thumbs when it comes to software, so we decided to transfer the footage in real-time via a Videotech VEC2070 analogue video processor to a Panasonic DMR-EX89 HDD/DVD recorder.

The processor enabled us to adjust as necessary the detail, brightness, contrast, and colour strength of the picture. We were also able to set the sound level as appropriate, and correct any tonal imbalances by using the bass, mid, and treble controls. Finally, as the sound master fader was located next to the picture fader, we were able to do synchronised fade-downs between items.

We copied the material initially to the HDD, making a separate recording for each item starting with a short blank screen and silence preceding the fade up. Another short blank screen and silence followed the fade-down. We then edited out these excessive blank silences before proceeding to the next item. The result was a logical and smooth flow without any embarrassing silences or rapid jumps.

Because the Panasonic recorder has an up-scaling facility, we monitored the recording on a large screen TV via the HDMI (1080p up-scaled) connection. We were thus able to set the picture adjustments in such a way that the replay quality of the final DVD was excellent regardless of whether it was played on a DVD or a Blu-Ray player. The final transfer was done from the HDD to a DVD using the variable bit rate option.

Because the transfer from S-VHS was done in real-time, we were saved the time which would have been necessary for rendering, also the embarrassment and time-wasting of having to go through the rendering again with different settings if we had made any errors initially.

We did not introduce any timebase correction into the signal flow, either before or after the processor, and judging by the success of the project none was necessary. However, if our S-VHS player had not turned out to be so mechanically stable, we may have found it necessary to use such a device. Perhaps something like a Panasonic WJ-AVE5 mixer could have been used, but another stage of processing (particularly using A/D then D/A conversion) may have caused some detectable deterioration of the picture.

We used a VEC2070 processor simply because it was available. It is quite possible that another make and model of processor would have worked just as well.

The only down-side of our method is that the DVD menu as generated by the Panasonic machine is very basic, but it worked well in spite of this.

Whichever method you choose, either the computer or the direct analogue option, I wish you the best possible success.
 

DAVE M
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

personally I'd use a VHS with an "S" output (y/c) straight to a DVD recorder and then use something like Mpeg Streamclip to format convert.

Most of the work can be done in your absence.

a decent VHS deck is the key, as a rubbish player prevents the info from being passed on.

 if they are several dance shows on VHS the possibility of getting a similar colour balance is pretty low.

special2015
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

I added the dvd recorder in the chain and now  i think it looks better color wise, its now showing the dvd recorder on the capture edit so i can switch between the vcr and dvd player. and  i think what the dvd colour is picking up is what is being captured through the advc, but i'm glad its working thanks a ton for the suggestions. :) 

rogs wrote:
I would be surprised if your ADVC55 was faulty. As a digital hardware device it's unlikely that kind of problem is caused by a hardware failure.
Much more likely to be one of the reasons in that thread I linked to above.

The ADVC 110 uses the same hardware - it just also includes a reverse D/A facility as well, so it's likely to give you the same results I would think.

Have you actually tried to introduce your DVD recorder into the processing chain?...i.e. VCR to DVD recorder input..... DVD recorder output (S-video is best, if available..) to your ADVC55 input. Might be worth testing that to see if there is any difference. Some DVD recorders include a form of time base correcter, and that might effect  the 'darkness' of the video, as described in that VideoHelp thread I linked to above...

My ADVC50 is an internal unit, so it is powered by the PC PSU and does not use an external supply.  Again, I would doubt that a power supply issue would cause the problem you are describing.

AFAIK, the TRV900 does not have the option to accept an analogue input, as we have already dsicussed above.......

jimmy the jock
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Re: Help regarding analogue capture with sony camcorder please

Long before I got to this bit this is what I was thinking I noticed a difference after using the pc power for the 55 and then I bought a 2nd one with psu

>>>>>Do you have a external power cable with your unit, i don't i power via firewire because  i didn't get one with my 55, but if i purchase it would it fix the colour? 

it fixes audio sync problems too

I have a real good psu on my pc as well and yet its better with the advc55 powered up from mains

worth a shot you will get one on ebay for less than a tenner!