John Ferrick's first DVdoctor column of 2005 - about drop-outs with HDV

John's column is now live.

Bob C

Hi Bob

The information in John's piece is worth it's weight in gold. It pulls together the facts about a situation where the average user (too often accustomed to believing that "it's their fault" or "it's something that they've done") would not have a starting point when something went wrong.

So at the risk of inflating still further the long list of DV Doctor forums, I'd like to propose a listing for Known Problem Situations.

This would be a focus for warnings (like John's on mixing tape brands). It might warn, for example, of the incompatabilty of a particular motherboard chipset with a brand of capture card or the clashes between an operating system upgrade and various types of software which were previously compatable.

In other words, it would pull together distributed knowledge. It would not be the same as FAQ (It would not be answering "How do I . . . .?" questions) and I would suggest that nobody but moderators should be allowed to make entries because every entry would need to be verified as far as possible before being put on line (because of the risks of libel).

Medical doctors say things like "there is a link between too much sunbathing and melanoma". The DV Doctor says "There is a link between mixing certain brands of tape and dropouts". A list of carefully monitored warnings would be of real value.

Ray Liffen

Good points - but as a refinement, what about only allowing entries by non moderators to become viewable after they had been vetted, rather than immediately after posting?

Regarding the article itself, the history referred to is more or less as I understood things to be. I don't know about the situation with HDV tapes, but if what John Ferrick says is true, it does seem a silly situation for Sony to have got into. The "don't use other manufacturers brands edict" is bad enough, but is a clear cut policy. What appears to be the case here is a camera able to record (almost EXPECTED to record) HDV and DVCAM, but if you mix Sony HDV and Sony DVCAM tapes, hey presto, problem time! Even if you stuck to HDV tapes (for DVCAM recordings) the problem merely gets transferred to the replay machine.

What Sony are forcing seems to be a situation where the Z1 may be used as a HDV camera OR a DVCAM camera - but not able to be switched between the two modes in practical use.

That seems to be a good summary of the situation. I was never happy with the original formulation problems, they should have seen it coming and admitted the problem when it surfaced. To have it happening all over again is inexcusable.

Ray/Infocus,

I'm reluctantly, currently, to make any changes to the structure of the forums because we're looking to switch the software for the forums to add extra features for users and administrators.

If and when we do migrate - and, based on current trials, I think it very likely that we will - we'll bring over all the data from the existing forums and, at that point, and when things are settled down, it will be possible (and likely) that we'll make a number of structural changes.

Once that happens, I'd appreciate an email reminder about this suggested new forum if I haven't already implemented it.

Bob C

David and i are once again looking into the forum migration as i write Bob...

cheers, PD

Kerr Cook has a post here that's On Topic for this thread

Well nearly anyway:
HDV tape vs Mini DV tape
http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=1744

EXCELLENT!!! :D

it's been far too long since our last dose of John Ferrick and this column is rather exciting in itself!

i'm glad i'm aware of this now as well, since we've been selling the FX1 and Z1E and a few have asked for HDV tapes as well. I think an email may be in order to those customers with a link to Mr Ferrick's words of wisdom...

mark.

:confused:
OK on Sony literature with the Z1 there is a big blurb on their Digital Master Tape (Grey Box Orange Writing) - Is this the tape that is causing the problem or is it the DVM63HD?

I have just received my Z1 and have not dared to put tape in up to now.

I will almost certainly be using it to shoot DVcam projects which I will play in my DSR1500 and DSR11 and I don't want to cause a problem with either the decks or the camera. According to the Sony graphs etc relating to the electromagnetic properties, distribution of dropouts and durability it would seem there is not much to chose between DVcam and Digital Master and both seem to be fairing better than DVM63HD and Cons.DV.

How much is it likely to compromise my HDV shooting if I chose to use eclusively DVcam tape in the camera?

If this does compromise quality would I be best off making a firewire dump to DV and only use Digital Master in the camera (Or would the firewire transfer loss be noticeable?)?

Maybe the tape clogging fears don't apply to digital Master and I will happily be able to use both tapes in both decks and camera?

The idea that the camera is a one function or the other as infocus suggests doesn't make much sense to me as surely any of the tape media can be used in any mode (but not mixed on the same tape) but the Alan Roberts says that a good summary of the situation - I'm very confused.

Help please!! I'm itching to put some sort of tape in it!

Go ahead and use the camera, that's what you bought it for.

What's at issue is whether the new, specific HDV, tapes will mix well with ordinary DV tapes. If they don't, you'll get some head clogging eventually. It may be after a few hours of use, it may be after a few months of use, we can't tell yet.

What's certain is that, if you stick with one brand and type of tape, consistently, you'll have little or no problem. The problem can arise only if you mix tape types. So, if you shoot all your HDV, DVCAM, miniDV, using the same type of tape, consistently, you'll be fine. That means across all the machines that you use, all the same make and type, always. It's only if you mix things that you might have problems, eventually.

Yes, it's the "Digital Master Tape" that we're talking about. Like Alan says, so long as you stick with one type of tape for everything you should have a problem. In your case, DVCAM tapes seem like the best bet since that's what you're using at the moment.

mark.

Thanks for your advice Alan and Mark - So if I stick to DVcam (Which is what I run on my decks) then all should be well even when shooting HDV.

This is particularly good news as Protape don't seem to be listing Digital Master Tape or indeed DVM63HD.

Thanks again.

Another Sony lubricated link ;)
http://www.philpang.com/tips/minidv_lubricants.html

:mad: I just read the message on Incompatible or tape mixing. I just took my family to England for a Wedding and a European vacation in Spain and Portugal.

My wife while shopping bought the Sony Mini DV tapes. I have always bought the Maxwell tape. The day of the Wedding in England I pop a new tape in and got the message incompatiable tape. I tried for several hours to get the camcorder to work, even using an old maxwell tape with some extra space on the end, didn't work either.

Please let me know if anyone else has had this problem and what can I do about it. I had no camcorder for the rest of my vacation "NO Video" so I have to rely on memories and some pictures we took to recall "the best family vacation we've ever taken" according to my daughter.:mad: :(

Tried a tape head cleaner?

I'm not too bothered about shooting on one brand of tape.

The problem arises when someone else brings along a tape or you wish to edit footage filmed ages ago on different brands.

I'm on the verge of buying the Sony HC1E but this issue is putting me off!

The problem is NOT camera-specific, it's tape specific.

You could have exactly the same problem if, say, you bought a JVC HDV camcorder.

Cleaning the heads before and after would help avoid the problem but the best way is not to put into your camcorder any of the suspect Sony tapes.

Bob C

Really? Perhaps a list of 'safe' and 'unsafe' tapes should be compiled.

Ironic that a Sony camera is better off avoiding Sony tapes.

It's not that. Sony have made a tape specifically for HDV, it has lower dropout levels than all other DV-format tapes. If you use those tapes, you should be fine. If you deliberately use DV tapes that aren't rated for HDV, you should expect to be more susceptible to problems, and would have little right to complain if you get them. This isn't rocket science.

I suppose the only way around it is to use your camera exclusively with Sony HDV tape and get another deck for all your old tapes.

That's the only 100% guaranteed way to avoid it, yes.

If the tape you've been using really is called Maxwell, Sanglin, then it may well be 'bootsale' counterfeit tape, and could well have caused what sounds like a severe head clog. If it's Maxell tape then all should be fine once you've run a head cleaner through the deck.

Remember that a head cleaning tape does just that - cleans the heads. It does nothing for the many rollers, guides, capstan and pinch roller as these revolve at zero relative speed to the passing tape.

So if you look into your deck with a focused Maglight and see the brown ring of gunge on the capstan (next to the rubber pinch roller) you'll know it's time for a tape path clean.

tom.

My rentals company is still telling me there are no problems with HDV and head clogging - certainly nothing of note over and above any other format.

They've had them since launch and now have a few dozen cameras and decks (maybe hundreds across the enitre company) and the only snags seem to be one or two reckless people breaking parts off the cameras such as the XLR connectors!

They do recommend Sony HDV tapes and that's the stock they send out with the units but hirers using their own stock will (as ever) put anything they have handy through the camera/deck.

I'm not saying the problem doesn't exist (not everyone has a service department looking after their kit) but I'd be interested to know of real world experience by end users - i.e. the good and the bad.