Hi
I am looking to make the scary leap from PC to Mac after more than 10 years on PC video editing and I have a couple of questions.
My current system uses the Black Magic HD Extreme and works pretty well (one of my main reasons for migration is a lack of well qualified editors on the Premier platform).
I was wondering whether to get a similar card for the Mac Pro set-up or whether to go for the Matrox MX system? I was thinking that the BM card would probably allow more sharing of files between my various edit suites on the PC side or is that irrelevant if I start to work with the highly praised apple pro-res codecs??
Also I'm not sure if this is a really bad time to buy a mac pro because they have moved on in terms of chip generation with the imac's - so do I run the risk of them bringing out a new mac pro (based on the i7 core) within minutes of buying the current model?
My current PC based system is built with an Asus Workstation P5Q WS with a 2.8 quad core chip, 8 Gb of RAM, an NVidia FX1700 plus a 10,000spin sata boot drive running windows vista 64bit OS. What sort of Mac Pro would I need to spec to keep a similar level of performance?
Not sure if I'd be doing the right thing with this move so any advice gratefully received.
Thanks
I have the BM HD Extreme card in my mac pro and find it works really well, one other big advantage is that I also use pro tools and it allows me to play pro res HQ as a picture with PT through the HDMI output.
I don't think you need the latest mac pro as my 2.8ghz 8 core machine with 8gb ram runs FCP very well.
Hi
Intel is not due to start supplying the next generation of Xeon CPUs (suitable for a replacement Mac Pro model) until the second half of next year.
Any current Mac Pro will work with Final Cut Pro - the 6-core will be the fastest.
The dual CPU models (8 or 12 core) are faster at batch encoding using Compressor.
ProRes 422 has taken over as the codec-of-choice for editing - both BlackMagic and Matrox (as well as AJA) fully support it.
Blackmagic cards are universal - they work in both PC and mac, so i would get your mac, put your existing BM card in and see if there is anything you don't like about the workflow.
One thing to bear in mind is that Davinci Resolve has just come out now, This only works on the BM HD Extreme v3 + latest Mac Pros. This means there are some bargain Mac edit systems on the secondhand market now, so if you don't want to worry about expensive grading programs its an ideal moment to pick up a used FCP system.
Many thanks for your rapid responses Gentlemen.
I think I shall take myself off to the apple store and take the plunge. I appreciate what you say about buying second hand but I'm fairly much in central London and I was planning to take advantage of the year of 1-2-1 tutorials that come sub £100 when you buy a new mac.
As someone who has built at least a half dozen PC systems I was wondering if there are any special things you should consider before opening up a mac box and putting editing cards and hard drives in them? Are they as straightforward to work on under the hood? Or do you always get that stuff fitted by apple? If the DIY option is as straightforward as PC then I'll definitely try the BM card I already own first (for a start its already beautifully plumbed into a patch bay).
With Adobe Creative Suite you get two installs so you can have one at work and one to play about and learn things at home or on a laptop - is that the same with FCP?
On the subject of drives - does firewire 800 perform well enough for editing HD on external drives? Or should I be looking at other options?
If anything it's easier to add bits (ones that fit!) to a Mac Pro than most PCs. Same applies to hard drives and memory. Apple tend to be very expensive for these.
FW 800 does perform well enough for most purposes although it obviously depends of the data rate of the codec you are using. If you need 4:4:4 uncompressed then you need something a lot more sophisticated.
Sorry, can't answer the multiple install question.
Hi
The licence for FCs allows an install on a tower (or iMac) and another install on a laptop, for use by one owner.
Running both simultaneously on a network will cause the second instance to be rejected.
FW800 is fine (as Rob writes). eSATA with a PCIe card is better, especially if multi-clip editing is involved.
Hear, hear to eSATA! Much better than either Firewire 800 or USB.
There are four esata drive bays in the mac pro so I popped in three 1tb drives and configured them as a 3tb raid 0 array.
I then use cheap USB drives as back-up for each project.
I recently upgraded from a G5 powermac (early 2005 model) to the latest (2010) 6 core MacPro and was delighted at how incredibly simple it has become to add RAM, PCIe cards and hard disks. It was fairly simple in the G5, but in the new models it is so simple you think you must have something wrong! Obviously, the usual anti-static precautions are necessary and a bit of calm and space help, but the instructions are clear both in the book AND on the machine itself, no tools are needed whatsoever and there are plenty of sources for compatible add-ons.
As for external drives and how to connect them, I was stuck with FW800 in the G5 (lack of suitable eSATA cards with port multiplier abilities available with PCI-X interface) and found its performance to be very good when working with Prores (NOT HQ version), EXCAM and DVCProHD, but it did start to fall over with more than 4 streams of ProRes. I have similar FW800 performance on the new machine, but I also now have eSATA fitted and it screams along with my RAID 5 clocking up about 200 MB/s write and 250MB/s read times compared to about 90 MB/s and 130 MB/s respectively with FW800 (using AJA System Test 10-bit 720p 1GB).
Dominic
there are a lot of advantages to the matrox hardware starting with just the overall construction - a real metal box with real connectors, not a short pigtail hanging off the card that requires extensions to everything. the mxo2's are everything in and out including HDMI.
then there is the MAX h264 faster then realtime even for HD acceleration. really its the best thing you could imagine when you need to do fast encodes, like right when you are ready to go home and can't stand to wait for a 1/2hr while a software encode runs....
another is that all the MXO2's can be used on a laptop via PCIe slot making them a lot more versatile for mobile use, including battery power.
and the MXO2's will work on both PC and mac. you can buy an extra PCie card, put it in the PC and move the box around without having to open the case.
Just be aware that no MXO currently supports CS5 on Mac at all. The MXO1 (which was a superb bit of kit on my previous system) can't work on the new MacPros at the moment unless they are booted in 32bit mode, which then means you can't use CS5 After Effects in the same session etc. Just make sure that if you do look at MXO2 with a new MacPro, that it is able to work with your software etc. Matrox have been really caught out here and their rectifying of the issues is a very, very slow process.
Matrox have been really caught out here and their rectifying of the issues is a very, very slow process.
Hi
Thereby hangs a tale - that involves Apple and Adobe as well as Matrox :mad:
Apple (we presume) is working on the rewrite to make QuickTime fit-for-purpose in a 64-bit iOS-centric world (and OS X and the rest of FCS etc) which will be ready when its ready....
Adobe have kludged their 64-bit CS5 to work with the currently 32-bit QT.
Its possible that Matrox are hanging-on-in until Apple issue new officially-supported 64-bit QT APIs, rather than joining the kludging brigade - who will quite likely have their software well and truly broken by Apple's brave new 64-bit world ;)
Matrox are supposed to be releasing the 2.1 Drivers for Mac next week for the MX02, which are supposed to be compatible with CS5.
I think my MX02 Mini with MAX is a useless lump of poo. Both the PC and the Mac drivers have been as buggy as a buggy thing. It currently sits here at the back of the desk looking dusty and unloved. Which it is.
Just be aware that no MXO currently supports CS5 on Mac at all. The MXO1 (which was a superb bit of kit on my previous system) can't work on the new MacPros at the moment unless they are booted in 32bit mode, which then means you can't use CS5 After Effects in the same session etc. Just make sure that if you do look at MXO2 with a new MacPro, that it is able to work with your software etc. Matrox have been really caught out here and their rectifying of the issues is a very, very slow process.
the MXO1 does work with a mac if you flash its firmware to be a Convert DVI. set PP to use 2nd monitor as video out, connect MXO1 to the 2nd DVI port, and done.
also as indicated, expect new drivers next week gaining CS5 compatibility.
the rest of your information is wrong. OS X 10.6.-5 boots into "32 bit mode" - thats the kernel. all adobe 64bit apps are fully functional as 64bit when the OS boots into 32 bit mode. AE CS5 very much does run in full 64bit mode with the OS booting @ 32bits. I can also say that the current MXO2 drivers do work quite fine with AE CS5 video preview.
OS X allows mix and match - it can boot as either 32 or 64bit, and apps can run as 32 or 64bit with complete mix and match. drivers need to match the boot mode however. the mxo2 drivers are 64bit already, you can see this when you launch activity monitor.
however, thats basically a moot point since OS X starts up as a 32bit kernel unless you manually and explicitly force it to boot into 64bit mode. there is no good reason to force 64bit mode booting unless you are testing stuff for now. there is only one app - Smoke, which requires the kernel to boot into 64bit mode. I would not expect apple to change to 64bit booting until 10.7, or perhaps the last update or two of 10.6
Thanks for a most informative response, Steve.
However, I am both confused and ignorant, so wonder if you might expand a bit.
the MXO1 does work with a mac if you flash its firmware to be a Convert DVI. set PP to use 2nd monitor as video out, connect MXO1 to the 2nd DVI port, and done.also as indicated, expect new drivers next week gaining CS5 compatibility.
The MXO1 certainly works with a Mac, as it is an exclusively Mac product and one that I have been using for about 4 years with my Powermac. What I don't understand is what you mean by 'flash its firmware to be a Convert DVI'. Would that allow it to work normally with a MacPro 5,1 and what does that ('flash its firmware to be a Convert DVI') actually mean anyway? The following is the most recent advice from Matrox support:
"Dominic,
Regarding the 5,1 support, this is being addressed by our engineers. Unfortunately we don't have a specific date as to when we can expect a fix to be released. But we can assure you and all our clients that it is being worked on and we hope to have a fix as soon as possible.
In the meantime, have you had success using the workaround posted by Vic: "As a workaround, you can boot your system in 32-bit mode (hold the number '3' and '2' during boot up)."?
Regarding CS5 support on the MXO: I do not have any specific information regarding future support and enhancements for the MXO. A good suggestion is to post a message in the Product Feature Enhancements section of the forum: http://forum.matrox.com/mxo/viewforum.php?f=6"
So it seems that Matrox recognise the issue and can only suggest a workaround. I have found the workaround to work with FCP and Motion, but it certainly doesn't work with After Effects CS5 - I get nothing. Likewise, if I boot normally, without holding down '3' and '2', then MXO absolutely does not work at all, so there must be something in the whole 32 bit booting thing - not really my field.
Anyway, there is a whole load of discussion on the Matrox support forums regarding CS5 support for Mac (Windows CS5 is already working). The latest from Matrox is that the necessary drivers for MXO2 (note MXO2, NOT MXO1) will be made available next week, as Mark has already said. Thus, I'm confused as to how you have MXO2 working with CS5 on a Mac - or is it in Windows, via Bootcamp? Anyway, I'm sure there are lots of people who would benefit from your knowledge over at Matrox!
Good to have another tech-informed member on the forum too!
Dominic
hi
convert DVI = MXO. same hardware, just different firmware. you will need a PC to flash the firmware, and set the mode of the converter. as such, convert DVI does what the same suggests - it takes computer DVI in and converts it to the format of your choice. set PP to use 2nd monitor for video out and convert DVI will do its thing. note you probably won't get sound out.
they release drivers 2.1.7 I think as the latest ones which I think added FCP 7 / 10.6 support.
OS X should be booting into 32bit mode by default. if its not, I'd suggest that you may of run some util that changed a system config file telling the kernel how to boot. I'd try googling
"set OS X boot 64bit" and look for a app / script that changes the system config to do so. I would think that once you set 32bit mode via keystroke, it should stay that way, but maybe not in your case for whatever reason. zapping PRAM via Command + Option + P + R during boot up 2X times may also fix the problem. first time is a basic reset, 2nd time is a full reset. doing it more is not required despite urban legend. then set 32bit mode boot.
as for my being able to see video preview in CS5, I had them working in the current driver release as far as I can remember. look in your mediacore folder to see if there are 2 matrox items in there. if not, try a reinstall. if nothing after a reinstall, then it probably has to due with me having newer drivers and simply forgetting how the current release drivers work :)... you'll have to wait a week.
Again Many thanks for all your contributions to this thread.
As I result I am opting for the following system:
Two 2.4GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon “Westmere” (8 cores)
8 GB (4 x 2 GB)
2TB 7200-rpm Serial ATA 3Gb/s hard drive
ATI Radeon HD 5870 1GB
Into which I shall also migrate my Black Magic card.
I will report back when the system is installed and working.
Don't forget your media drives, I put three 1gb esata drives in an internal raid 0 array and it gives enough speed for lots of pro res hq streams.
Very nice machine chosen! Before you press the button, though (and please do excuse me if you've already done this, which you probably have!), do have a look at the Barefeats.com tests, which suggest the 6-core is actually faster at getting stuff done. Of course, it's swings and roundabouts, but it may be worth a closer inspection. Just my tuppence. D
Elbow - make sure you DON'T buy any extra media drives from Apple! (But I'm sure you knew that already!)
Just get ONE from Apple, and add any others yourself from, shall we say, "competitively priced" reputable suppliers!
....er.... same goes for any extra RAM?
Elbow - DON'T buy your drives from Apple! (But I guess you knew that already!) Just get ONE from Apple, and add the others yourself from, shall we say, "competitively priced" reputable suppliers! ....er.... or extra RAM?
Good advice and have a look on e-bay as that is where I got my 6gb ram for £90, a second video card for £90 and I got my 1tb drives from Amazon for £55 each.
OK - I held off the send button to see what would happen. Thanks for the follow-ups! Looked at the bench marks for the single ship 6 core and decided to go in that direction.
Dropped the RAM to 3x1GB because I can buy 4x2GB (from Crucial) for less than the upgrade to 4x2GB from Apple (so then I'll end up with 11GB - will that be OK or should I take the three 1GB's out? I thought memory should be matched pairs? Why do Apple sell it like that - is it because 3GB is the limit 32bit systems can address?)
Will definitely be doing the three time 2GB internal Media drives from misco or similar - any suggestions welcome - (I've budgeted about £110 per drive)
This is it now I'm hitting send!!!!
Regarding RAM, the advice seems to have changed from matched pairs to matched trios! Not sure why, but that's what I was advised by OWC (where I got my 3 x 4GB RAM for my new 6-core). My machine is a dream now, but I did have some teething problems, as a result of using the Apple transfer utility to port my old computer onto my new - DON'T DO IT!!!! Of course, as you are upgrading from a PC that's not going to be an issue. :rolleyes:
Let us know how you find your new setup, once it's working. Best, Dominic
I certainly will Dominic, I may ask you a few more questions about your esata raid5 too - once I'm up and running.
Thanks to all for your pearls.
I put three of the 1tb version of this drive and they seem to do the job and are very reasonably priced:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Western-Digital-Caviar-3-5-inch-Internal/dp/B003SLE8HE/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1291146865&sr=8-5