September 28, 2013 - 17:56
Hi. I've used various SONY camcorders in the past and have been using 2 SONY VX2100s for many years now to film weddings. I want to upgrade to professional HD camcorders and have done quite a bit of research and am leaning towards the SONY PMW200. I'd appreciate any views from people who have used this (or other professional camcorders) before I buy. As I want 2, don't really want to pay more than about £5k each for them. Thanks
September 28, 2013 - 21:19
#1
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
I'm jumping in straight away here, more as a warning than anything else. This question has been asked so many times on this board by others in the past and all it results in is the various factions bigging up their own corners for what ever reason - the Sony fans for the Sony cams, the Canon fans for the Canons etc etc and so it goes on - you learn nothing and end up in total confusion.
You are the one who has to use the gear, you've already done the homework, go and test the camera out and if it's right FOR YOU then go with it - if it's not right then don't. Be objective, don't be afraid to admit it if it's not the right one, you have to be happy and at ease with the camera not the badge that's on it or which bells and whistles it has or hasn't got.
Just my opinion.
roibo
September 28, 2013 - 21:34
#2
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
Ten kay on cameras alone. I hope you do more than just weddings Sian, because that's a huge investment. OK if you have two camera-persons working all day, but am I right in thinking that one will be your backup camera, to be locked off at the back of the church, back of the reception, back of the dance floor?
The PMW200 will be a delight in your hands, but I'd suggest it's overkill for the cutaways.
tom.
September 28, 2013 - 21:37
#3
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
It's more than just the camera, though, isn't it, Robo?
For someone making the step up from SD to HD it's also about the media, how expensive that is (a little bit more than MiniDV tapes), how one backs up the media (no more piles of MiniDV tapes), what codec the camera records in, how compatible that is with your computer and editing software...
I think the PMW-200 would be an idea choice for you if you can afford it. It's good in low light, it's easy to use on a tripod or handheld, the long-GOP MPEG2 codec it records to is much easier work for computers than any flavour of AVCHD, it's compatible with almost all NLEs, including Final Cut Pro. You can record to cheap SD cards instead of the more expensive SXS cards. My only question would be whether you could manage just as well with the PMW-150: 1/3 inch sensors rather than the PMW-200's 1/2 inch being the main difference.
Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC
September 28, 2013 - 21:40
#4
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
£10,000? Written off over three years? First year interest free, maybe even the second too if you can get the right deal? Doesn't seem such a big investment to me at £275 a month.
Adobe Certified Professional Premiere Pro CS6, Premiere Pro CC
September 29, 2013 - 00:11
#5
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
In response to robos warning post, (which I broadly agree with) then the answer should be that anyone "bigging up their own corner" should give a reason for any opinion they state. Taken together, Sian or anybody else with the same thoughts can then make up their own minds whether the praise/criticism is valid or simply fanboyism.
All that said, then well, it really depends a great deal on budget, which is probably stating the obvious really. The more you pay, the better you get, but it's a law of diminishing returns.
I can't really think of anything better than the PMW200 at the moment, not at that price tag, anyway. A year ago, I might have leaned towards the Canon XF300 instead, but since the EX1 transformed into the PMW200 (and got the fully approved broadcast codec) then I'd say Sony have retaken the crown. Fundamentally, it's down to 1/2" chips versus the 1/3" of it's competitors, and that includes Sonys PMW150. Maybe significant is whether you're looking to broaden the range of work, or just looking for two VX2100s replacements to also use for weddings?
All that said, then well, it really depends a great deal on budget, which is probably stating the obvious really. The more you pay, the better you get, but it's a law of diminishing returns.
I can't really think of anything better than the PMW200 at the moment, not at that price tag, anyway. A year ago, I might have leaned towards the Canon XF300 instead, but since the EX1 transformed into the PMW200 (and got the fully approved broadcast codec) then I'd say Sony have retaken the crown. Fundamentally, it's down to 1/2" chips versus the 1/3" of it's competitors, and that includes Sonys PMW150. Maybe significant is whether you're looking to broaden the range of work, or just looking for two VX2100s replacements to also use for weddings?
I'd be inclined to look at both the PMW300 and the PMW320 before doing anything irrevocable. They're more expensive than the PMW200, but each in it's own way more professional - and they aren't THAT much more expensive, we're not looking at Arri Alexa money! The PMW320 offers full shouldermount ergonomics and connectivity, the PMW300 offers much better ergonomics than the PMW200, and XAVC codec options as well as XDCAM422. The latter may be overkill (and irrelevant) if your work will only be weddings, but could be well worth having in the future if you're hoping for broadcast compatible work. The disadvantage of the PMW320 is that it's "only" XDCAM EX - not XDCAM 422 - but for wedding use I'd be inclined to use that codec anyway, even with a camera which permits XDCAM422 recording.
Reasoning for the latter statement comes back to what Mark M says. You can use SDHC with the PMW200 - but not for XDCAM422. Only for XDCAM EX. Actually, these days a lot of people are talking about using XQD cards in SxS cameras via adaptors. I don't have any first hand experience, but the advocates say that they offer all the advantages of SxS, without the possible pitfalls of SDHC. I also concur with Mark that for your type of work then nowadays XDCAM is a far better bet than AVC-HD. The file sizes aren't that much bigger, and it's far more easily dealt with by computers than AVC-HD. It depends on the computer, but typically XDCAM can be dealt with pretty easily native - AVC-HD is far more comfortable if transcoded.
One other thing from me, which ties in with robos comment about "you have to be happy and at ease with the camera" is something which often gets overlooked amidst all the tech talk, and that's the lens. One big operational difference IMO between a pro camera and a prosumer is that often the former has "true" manual control of iris and focus, the latter is via servos. That manifests itself as the former having proper end stops, the latter being continually rotating - the focus won't stop at infinity. Some servo lenses are much better than others, but they typically also have a "soggy" feel to them where you start to turn the ring.... and the response happens a little later.
Reasoning for the latter statement comes back to what Mark M says. You can use SDHC with the PMW200 - but not for XDCAM422. Only for XDCAM EX. Actually, these days a lot of people are talking about using XQD cards in SxS cameras via adaptors. I don't have any first hand experience, but the advocates say that they offer all the advantages of SxS, without the possible pitfalls of SDHC. I also concur with Mark that for your type of work then nowadays XDCAM is a far better bet than AVC-HD. The file sizes aren't that much bigger, and it's far more easily dealt with by computers than AVC-HD. It depends on the computer, but typically XDCAM can be dealt with pretty easily native - AVC-HD is far more comfortable if transcoded.
One other thing from me, which ties in with robos comment about "you have to be happy and at ease with the camera" is something which often gets overlooked amidst all the tech talk, and that's the lens. One big operational difference IMO between a pro camera and a prosumer is that often the former has "true" manual control of iris and focus, the latter is via servos. That manifests itself as the former having proper end stops, the latter being continually rotating - the focus won't stop at infinity. Some servo lenses are much better than others, but they typically also have a "soggy" feel to them where you start to turn the ring.... and the response happens a little later.
In general, it's in ways like this that such as Sonys XDCAM range (same with the Canon XF300) are better than all the AVC-HD cameras - it's not just in the other tech specs. As I said before - the more you pay, the better you get. Personally, I think the PMW200 represents a very good balance between cost and performance. You can get cheaper - you can get better - it depends where you draw the lines.
September 29, 2013 - 12:06
#6
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
We've used Sony DV/DVCAM and XDCAM for may years and have been very happy with them all.
If you JUST want a drop in replacement for the VX2100s and you ARE going to produce in a HD workflow then the PMW150 would be good - it has lots of reach - the PMW200 is slightly better in low light and paints nicer images (bigger chips) - it doesn't cost loads more than the 150 but has less reach (but still more than you get with your VX2100s).
The PMWs are NOT the only options - these are some off the top of my head with my comments:
Sony EA50 - designed from the ground up for weddings - DSLR images - camcorder form factor. Stock lens surprisingly useful - Very much loved by some.
JVC HM600 - possibly the nearest thing to a VX2100 for the modern day videographer - does everything and is CHEAP - if it had a Sony badge more would love it.
Sony NX30 and NX70 - trick little cameras earning a living on the quiet for many videographers - very clever, small, light and decent images.
Canon XF100/300 - both overdue for and upgrade from Canon but rewarding - prices are dropping
I'm sure there are more BUT these are the cameras I've heard and read very good things about and SEEN the results from in real world use.
They won't necessarily compete with the PMW200 on every level but they are credible in their own right and are very usable machines.
What would I buy with 10K? - None of the above. In my opinion a 2nd hand EX1R is the ultimate bargain camera right now. If they weren't available then I'd take a long hard look at the JVC HM600/650 - possibly rent one first to help me get over the stigma of it not having a Sony badge.
September 29, 2013 - 12:22
#7
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
Thank you all so much for all your comments, they have all been really useful.
Robo - totally agree that the camera has to be the right one for me. As well as wanting certain functionality I always hold/use a camera to make sure it's comfortable etc for me.
Tom - I hear what you're saying about the big investment (and it doesn't stop there cos I'm going to upgrade the PC too!) but the time is right. I've been filming weddings part time for the last 20 years and am finally going to pack in the "day job" soon and go full time so starting to try and grow my business - done the sums and happy with them (see if I'm still saying that in a few years!!!!)
Mark M - thanks for the info about the codecs and PCs liking AVCHD less, didn't know that. I had looked at the PMW-150 but the smaller sensor size put me off. I do a lot of evening shooting in weddings and other celebrations and low light shooting is therefore important to me and I felt that the PMW-200 would therefore be better.
Infocus 2 - I had looked at the PMW-300 & 320 & the 350 too. Liked them all but the size and cost put me off - perhaps I will be able to upgrade in a few years if I am successful in growing the business!
I'll let you all know what I buy.
Thanks again
Sian
September 29, 2013 - 12:30
#8
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
Thanks Gavin - really useful. I'll read up on all these before I make a final decision. I hate to rush in to buying anything (especially when thinking of spending £10k!).
Hadn't thought of buying 2nd hand as concerned that could end up with problems depending on how the cameras have been treated but perhaps I should take a look to see what's out there.
September 29, 2013 - 20:01
#9
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
By and large, I agree with pretty well all Gavin says - the only exception may be "the PMW200 is slightly better in low light" - I'd say the difference is more than "slight". To quantify, it's at least a stop, and a figure of a stop is also the difference it has over comparable (but 1/3") cameras in terms of depth of field and aperture range limitation due to diffraction. Nobody should be in any doubt that 1/2" v 1/3" chips is quite a major issue.
Of the cameras Gavin mentions then the HM600 in particular is indeed worth a second look. I gave a couple of higher price options to the PMW200 (PMW300/320) - Gavins given you a few lower priced. I'll repeat what I said before - You can get cheaper - you can get better - it depends where you draw the lines.
Where the HM600 gets interesting is that in terms of price and other aspects, it compares with cameras in Sonys NXCAM and Panasonics AVCCAM ranges. But unlike those, it features XDCAM AS WELL as AVC-HD. It really does depend how much you want to spend - the PMW200 is undoubtedly better than the HM600 in many aspects, the HM600 is undoubtedly cheaper.
Gavin Gration wrote:
What would I buy with 10K? - None of the above. In my opinion a 2nd hand EX1R is the ultimate bargain camera right now. If they weren't available then I'd take a long hard look at the JVC HM600/650 - possibly rent one first to help me get over the stigma of it not having a Sony badge.
Yes, the second hand option is well worth thinking about. I suspect quite a few EX1/3 owners may be upgrading now to get the fully broadcast approved codec, so prices/availability of used EX cameras may be pretty good at the moment. If you don't need XDCAM422 (and I'd say XDCAM EX is probably best for such as weddings anyway) looking for secondhand may well be a very good idea. Solid state cameras don't have many moving parts, so probably a less risky buy than buying secondhand in the days of tape. (Though pay attention to lens action.)
Personally, I'd then think very hard about an EX3. Not as good ergonomically as a PMW300, but a lot better than an EX1 (or PMW200, for that matter!) What about an EX3 and an EX1?
As far as the general points about cost, then if it's your full time business I think it's better to think in terms of a projected and averaged annual cost, and maybe allow for resale value? Even without the latter, spread over 5 years, we're only talking of £2,000 pa if you did go the PMW200 route, and maybe £1,250 for new HM600's. Compared to other business costs/returns, I'd argue the difference is relatively small - yet your cameras are core to your whole business. It's one thing if you're a hobbyist, but for business you really don't want to be cutting corners here. Just my opinion, anyway! :-)
September 30, 2013 - 16:22
#10
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
you'll need some far better tripods if you're coming up from VX2100's.
At least £500 to £1000
March 5, 2014 - 22:45
#11
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
Thought I'd post an update to say that I ended up getting 2 Sony PMW200s and couldn't be happier with them - amazing picture quality and low light performance. 1 thing I hadn't considered before buying them though was my editing software. Been using various versions of pinnacle over the years but it doesn't import xdcam files so also upgraded that now too! Tried a few trial versions and then opted for sony Vegas pro suite. Another learning period!
July 18, 2014 - 14:49
#12
Re: Professional HD camcorder views
Hi Sian
How are you getting on with the PMW200. I've just bought one and doing my first wedding with it on Saturday. My old camera was shoulder mount so trying out working with monopod.
it's quite heave to keep stead handheld for long periods. Also not sure how audio recording is going to go once a disco starts blasting out tracks. Have you found the AGC or limiter to help with this?
Thanks